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  • #46
    Patriotism?

    Patriotism is NOT Barack Obama saying, "I want to fundamentally change America as we know it."

    Patriotism is NOT liberals saying the Constitution is an, "...old outdated document that needs to be updated."

    Patriotism is NOT accepting "Socialism" as the new norm.

    Patriotism is NOT kneeling during the National Anthem.

    Patriotism is NOT burning and looting your neighborhood businesses.

    Patriotism is NOT being selfish and knowing we ALL have different likes and dislikes.

    Patriotism IS embracing the 1st, 2nd and ALL the other Amendments.

    Patriotism IS peaceful protests.

    Patriotism IS recognizing that whether you like all police officers or not, they do a dangerous and often thankless job.

    Patriotism IS realizing ALL cops ARE human. Not perfect. Only one man was perfect.

    Patriotism IS accepting the duly elected president of the United States. ...whether you like them or not.




    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Buckshott00 View Post

      Out of curiousity..."there's not enough context to make a final opinion of why the 75-year old was trying to get in the face of the officer. " What kind of context in your mind would make that okay?

      How about this one? What kind of context would make that okay?
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMXnFOvN0Ts

      I get that times are scary, I get that people want calm and law and order, I'm asking you to realize that this didn't pop up out of nowhere or overnight and there's a lot of work to be done. You all seem like smart worldly gentlemen, so for the life of me I can't understand your position. Firing on your fellow citizens, do you really see them as that different that your okay with this, even if it means people like your friends, family, kids, neighbors get caught up in this? I mean, have you asked yourselves how you would have responded if the people protesting over Covid shut downs had been treated this way?
      The context would be knowing the motivations of the 75 yo to be at a demonstration and get in the face of a police office. Perhaps it would have been ok if the man had been mentally incapable. If he was rational, then he was a dumbass for placing himself in that situation.

      On the last video, the man with the cane also appears to be an idiot for placing himself in such a situation. I've little sympathy for foolish old men and their actions. I learned at a young age that taunting a bull from his side of the fence requires one to be fleet of foot in order to escape getting hurt...

      Comment


      • #48
        A peaceful demonstration is to be expected, but when it turns to looting, burning property and outright violence, at what point is it quenched ? If the police are overwhelmed by numbers and area to be covered, should we continue with that manner of action to stop the idiocy, or are other means brought into play, military if needed ? As long as rioters know no strict means of stopping them are not being used, do we just assume all will then cease and be orderly again, really ? The so called peaceful demonstrations that are being accepted are also of little faith in my eyes. These so called demonstrators are only there for the hate they have of Trump, whipped into action by the dimwit party. They don’t need a reason other than hate and if that be the case, then solve the problems they have at election time, not like spoiled children crying because things are not their way. If there are enough who think as they do, then vote for change. That is why we have elections every four years, or has no one noticed ? The D’s are the ones who divided this country, with the ilk of the muslim who stated ‘impeach the MFer’ and that was at election time, not months later. But no hate there of course, just every day handling by the D’s ! The peaceful dementors are in the low thousands, but there is no way of knowing just how many thousands are not of their persuasion and are not contributing to the BS !! If you want change.......vote !

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by PigHunter View Post

          The context would be knowing the motivations of the 75 yo to be at a demonstration and get in the face of a police office. Perhaps it would have been ok if the man had been mentally incapable. If he was rational, then he was a dumbass for placing himself in that situation.

          On the last video, the man with the cane also appears to be an idiot for placing himself in such a situation. I've little sympathy for foolish old men and their actions. I learned at a young age that taunting a bull from his side of the fence requires one to be fleet of foot in order to escape getting hurt...
          PigHunter, how about the context that the officers involved were immediately suspended without pay? Does that context matter? Or that the Mayor, County Head, and Governor of NY, all condemned that action? And have subsequently charged with assault. I think it does.
          "Officers Robert McCabe and Aaron Torgalski were both charged with second-degree assault, a class D felony. They were both released without bail after the hearing and will return to court July 20."

          And yeah, the mayor called him an agitator for standing on a public corner peacefully if loudly exercising his 1st amendment rights. Those rights are inherenet and guaranteed to you. I bet you'd have issue if someone tried to take your guns for the greater good, so why aren't you more concerned about people trying to take your other rights for "the greater good".

          You think people are dumb for being where the police are, but it's becoming apparent from these videos that parts of MN and others, Police are just showing up. It's like saying "Just don't get into fist fights" and then someone starts swinging at you. You didn't ask to be in a fist fight, you didn't taunt a bull. but there you are in a fist fight or having a bull chase you.

          Think of it this way. A month ago everyone was mad as hell for not being allowed to go out into open spaces, and then this happens and suddenly they're dumb for going out into public spaces?

          I mean have you thought about what would happen if you were in town and suddenly a group of LEO's surged around you? The one old guy was just waiting on for the bus.

          You EDC, right? You have a gun on your person most of the time. What is the purpose of that gun? I'm betting it's to defend yourself and others from assault. Those officers were charged with assault. So when and how are you going to distinguish protecting your person from assault when the same crime is being carried out on a person and you're blaming the one for being assaulted as inviting it.

          This study is all about police sexual misconduct and assualt for people in custody. Are those women taunting a bull? Were they asking to be raped, they're in police custody, they're there in front of police. I guess it's there own fault hmm?
          https://www.bwjp.org/assets/document...cale-study.pdf
          And before you say it, it is the same thing or close enough to be pertient to the point. The police are not the law onto themselves and don't get act without reprecussion. There is an established use of force model that is clearly being ignored.

          I've got some bad news in that case PH. There's a lot more people with guns than there are LEO. Pushing old men, doesn't deescalate things, and when you see those Bugaloo crazies start showing up, things will either de-escalate in a hurry or things will get bloody. I'm for things not getting bloody

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Danbo View Post
            It's not blind loyalty but he's the best running so he has my vote. My guys in 2016 got creamed Rand being my first choice. Barrett was my pick also maybe the next one. His other judicial appointments are good too.
            I'm not trying to tell you how to speak or to condescend to you, but I want you to consider how your point comes across.
            When you say things like "I don't care what you / anyone says..." it comes off as blind loyalty. If you say things like, given the field of candidates, even though I disagree with various aspects of his policy or his person, I still believe him to be the best for the job" it comes off as way more reasoned. Heck, even saying "given his stance / positions(s) on" seems more reasoned because it implies you've at least considered other options.

            I don't know your personal circumstances, but I can respect a position a lot more if you say you've at least considered other options or believe the candidacy on a issue or they issues best suits you.

            Morally, I can't bring myself to vote for either GOP or Dem, can't bring myself to vote for guys with histories of sexual misconduct. For the first time ever, I will vote for a woman for president. I'll be voting for Jo Jorgensen because she's the most educated candidate running, she protects 2A, she wants to repeal laws and regulations that are hurting our economy and cut wasteful spending by Washington.

            I have to live in a Deep blue state for work, so my vote "doesn't count" but at least this way, my conscience is clear.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Danbo
              Yes I have and I disagree. Comparing Non violent Covid protesters to this insurrection is a non starter. I generally follow the law. If a cop gives me a order I follow it even if I disagree.

              I've been to a few protests my self.

              I've never rioted, looted or committed arson
              Most of the people across the country are non-violent. In Michigan I watched people get right in the face and scream at MSP. The police restrained themselves and didn't need to bring out batons and tear gas to control the situation.

              You can make the distinction between protesters and demonstrators even angry protestors and demonstrators and rioters. Again, no one is condoning rioters and looters. My problem is people in power hardly ever let a crisis go to waste. They're exercising uses of force against people that are non-violent and too many people are eating that up as "taking back the streets against rioters"

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by FirstBubba View Post
                Patriotism?

                Patriotism is NOT Barack Obama saying, "I want to fundamentally change America as we know it."

                Patriotism is NOT liberals saying the Constitution is an, "...old outdated document that needs to be updated."

                Patriotism is NOT accepting "Socialism" as the new norm.

                Patriotism is NOT kneeling during the National Anthem.

                Patriotism is NOT burning and looting your neighborhood businesses.

                Patriotism is NOT being selfish and knowing we ALL have different likes and dislikes.

                Patriotism IS embracing the 1st, 2nd and ALL the other Amendments.

                Patriotism IS peaceful protests.

                Patriotism IS recognizing that whether you like all police officers or not, they do a dangerous and often thankless job.

                Patriotism IS realizing ALL cops ARE human. Not perfect. Only one man was perfect.

                Patriotism IS accepting the duly elected president of the United States. ...whether you like them or not.



                We can agree on all those things or none of them. The beauty of love our country is that even if you accept the current Pres. anyone can still disagree with him. Moreover they can disagree with him to the point of bringing about real and meaningful change.

                People have a right to protest and demonstrate that is inherent and enshrined by the highest law of our Land. I love this country because our freedoms and our Laws protect those rights, and that ensures that our Country is bigger than any single person, it's the epitome of being individualistic while also working towards the common good. Our country is bigger and better than one person, even if that person is the country's highest executive.

                Danbo clarified his position so I don't have a problem there. All I'm trying to do is show people this issue isn't so "black and white" / binary as a few people have made it out to be. You're doing a great job of showing that and are making great points.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by bowhunter75richard View Post
                  A peaceful demonstration is to be expected, but when it turns to looting, burning property and outright violence, at what point is it quenched ? If the police are overwhelmed by numbers and area to be covered, should we continue with that manner of action to stop the idiocy, or are other means brought into play, military if needed ? As long as rioters know no strict means of stopping them are not being used, do we just assume all will then cease and be orderly again, really ? The so called peaceful demonstrations that are being accepted are also of little faith in my eyes. These so called demonstrators are only there for the hate they have of Trump, whipped into action by the dimwit party. They don’t need a reason other than hate and if that be the case, then solve the problems they have at election time, not like spoiled children crying because things are not their way. If there are enough who think as they do, then vote for change. That is why we have elections every four years, or has no one noticed ? The D’s are the ones who divided this country, with the ilk of the muslim who stated ‘impeach the MFer’ and that was at election time, not months later. But no hate there of course, just every day handling by the D’s ! The peaceful dementors are in the low thousands, but there is no way of knowing just how many thousands are not of their persuasion and are not contributing to the BS !! If you want change.......vote !
                  "at what point is it quenched?"
                  When it turns to looting and burning. No one is questioning that BHR. What I'm asking you to realize is that the majority of these demonstrators, even if they're angry are not the ones doing the looting and the burning. In the same way that it is wrong to think that all Police are guilty for the crimes of the few. It is wrong to lump all these protestors together, because a few of them are bad actors and are escalating. AND, it's wrong for the police to be just as indescriminated.

                  If we are accepting of Police pushing and beating Old men and people being maced pepper sprayed and beaten simply for being in the street, what do you think will happen when the military shows up?

                  It seems disingenous or maybe uniformed to think that people aren't voting for change or that these people aren't trying to get people to see things differently. If you're always in the minority, even if you have 100% voter turnout you'll still lose. That means you can have a cause that is completely morally righteous (I'm not saying this is) but still lose because at that point it's a numbers game.

                  They voted for the Dems because they wanted change, change takes time, but executive action exists to stop bad actors on both sides.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Bucky
                    "... I'll be voting for Jo Jorgensen because she's the most educated candidate running. ..."

                    While I respect you being candid about "who" you're voting "For" and the reasoning behind it, I have to also consider the H. Ross Pee-Rot's of the world.

                    H. Ross put up a conservative argument that attracted LOTS of conservative voters. Enough so that Clinton won.

                    It's just hard for me to vote for someone I KNOW can't win.
                    JMNSHO
                    Last edited by FirstBubba; 06-06-2020, 02:32 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I hear you Bubba. Lots of Libertarians know we can't win. The system is not setup for a 3rd party. That being said, and people will get into Meta-gaming the votes.

                      It's a losing strategy, but I'd rather vote for the most qualified and be an honest loser than to vote crooked winner.

                      I do wish H.W. had won, he was the most qualified for the job, even more than Perot, but I tend to lay the blame on the media for that one. Slick Willy played them like a fiddle.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Buckshott00 View Post
                        I hear you Bubba. Lots of Libertarians know we can't win. The system is not setup for a 3rd party. That being said, and people will get into Meta-gaming the votes.

                        It's a losing strategy, but I'd rather vote for the most qualified and be an honest loser than to vote crooked winner.

                        I do wish H.W. had won, he was the most qualified for the job, even more than Perot, but I tend to lay the blame on the media for that one. Slick Willy played them like a fiddle.
                        Bush vs. Clinton was one of the very first elections where liberals blatantly showed their willingness to "play games" to win elections.
                        I think #41 could have come up with something better than, "Read my lips! NO NEW TAXES!"
                        The (D)'s are the ones who decided to increase taxes.
                        Bush's ONLY option was to refuse to sign the bill.
                        Just about anything would have been better than "Slick Willie"!
                        Last edited by FirstBubba; 06-06-2020, 05:59 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Bubba, I'm just pretty tired of all the games. Our system in theory is supposed elevate the most qualified to the top. If that's the case how come we're always talking about "The lesser of two evils" and "anyone but..."

                          I wish we actually had some real winners involved, that we could get to a place where even if our particular candidate lost, we'd still know we're in pretty good hands. I don't see that happening any time soon so I have to vote 3rd party or No Confidence.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            .....the lesser of two evils, and anybody but..... !

                            Maybe that is the dysfunctional quality of a two party system ! That was strongly pointed out in the last election. It appears as though it will reoccur in the next also, unless the D’s do something at convention time and the R’s can see the hand writing on the wall ! But in all honesty, why would anyone want the darn job in the first place ? Trying to satisfy a country and it’s different people’s interests must be daunting. It has come to now people demand a prefix in front of ‘American’ and that does not appear to be a uniting situation. Someone is either an American or not, jmho ! In a country of over 340,000,000, many of which demand special entitlements, and not being as one, how can a president please, if not all, at least most ? The D’s had a excellent opportunity to take advantage of Trump, but the childish behavior of Pelosi and Schiff pretty much negated that from happening, not to even mention the same from the Squad !

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Buckshot you should work with those folks pushing for instant runoff and other forms of voting where your first, second, third, and fourth choice of candidates might end up being elected. California and Maine if I'm not mistaken already have primaries where anyone from any party can run and the top two candidates run in the general.

                              Not that I support your "all the money for the rich people" philosophies but I think it would help with our current polarization. I notice your candidate is for open borders and and an end to all tarifs so China can import any and all goods tax free. I'll bet she'd love to privatize all the public land I hunt on too. It's not a big jump from Biden's neoliberalism to Ayn Rand's libertarianism.

                              I can see what her policies would do by looking at Milwaukee, endless rows of burnt out blocks and looted store fronts, and the mob shouting at the mayor that they want to abolish the police like some kind of dystopian future come to life on the streets of our country. Ya, take away all the police funding so they can't hire anyone. Great idea, not.

                              I'm with Trump on this one, whatever it takes to restore civil order and work it out after that. If you are disrupting the country by protesting on the streets right now you're part of the problem. After the rule of law is restored and people stop looting and burning, if people want to peacefully protest following all laws like not stopping traffic or impeding others in going about their lawful business, ok. The first amendment ends where people infringe on my right to go to work on our roads, or a store owner to operate a business without being looted. It's just like we have a second amendment but that doesn't allow you to just shoot people. The BOR is not written to be a carte blanche to do as you like.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Blacks protest lives matter,yet black lives in Africa do not even matter. Millions are involved in racism every year in Africa and the World Liberal Aid organizations ask the World for money and help. Repeats itself every year. Sometimes millions are involved. Blacks don't even like other blacks. Seems with a money hand out all is o.k.. Sounds like a World problem , not just a American problem.

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