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Punish or not to punish ?

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  • Punish or not to punish ?

    In my mind, we train our military to kill people and break things. In the course of carrying out their mission we should not punish them for something a behind a desk turd at the Pentagon does not like. Those desk jockeys can't carry a soldiers water. JMO

  • #2
    Originally posted by jhjimbo View Post
    In my mind, we train our military to kill people and break things. In the course of carrying out their mission we should not punish them for something a behind a desk turd at the Pentagon does not like. Those desk jockeys can't carry a soldiers water. JMO
    If a desk turd has been in such a situation as a soldier who is on trial for an action while under fire, then he is probably capable of giving information. However, if not, he really has not much to be criticizing anyone for ! I would imagine in a death or life situation, sh*t happens, and if it happens to the enemy, so be it !!!

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    • #3
      Cant sanitize war. But there is ( and should be ) a difference between a soldier and an animal.



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      • #4

        Trump's decisions run directly counter to the discipline that makes the US military an elite force. The rule of law is what sets us apart from our adversaries, and the issue of discipline is serious business.

        Good order and discipline is what has enabled our victory against foreign adversaries, and the lives of US service members literally depend on the professional execution of our missions.




        Military officials say White House won't intervene in review of Navy SEAL who posed with dead body

        "Military officials say White House won't intervene in review of Navy SEAL who posed with dead body." No, not much.


        Discipline is central to the US military ethos. US forces are highly trained to operate in a legal and disciplined manner and if they are found guilty of violations, they must face punishment.

        War crimes will not be tolerated because of the stress of battle.
        Last edited by 99explorer; 11-25-2019, 03:17 PM.

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        • #5
          Gallagher fortunately was found not guilty of murder, but punished for unprofessional conduct in posing for a picture with a dead enemy soldier.
          That would be roughly comparable to a hunter posing with his foot on the carcass of a dead deer.
          It gives us all a bad name.

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          • #6
            This whole episode reminds me of a very old movie starring Barry Sullivan, playing the part of an American Army major taken prisoner by the German SS during WWII.
            He is blindfolded and walked through a corridor to an interrogation room, and along the way, he is allowed to hit his head on some low hanging objects, to the amusement of his captors.
            He says that if the is an example of how the German army's most "elite" unit treats enemy officers, it is a sad reflection on the quality of the regular army, the Wehrmacht.
            They suddenly sober up and realize that he is right.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by 99explorer View Post
              Trump's decisions run directly counter to the discipline that makes the US military an elite force. The rule of law is what sets us apart from our adversaries, and the issue of discipline is serious business.

              Good order and discipline is what has enabled our victory against foreign adversaries, and the lives of US service members literally depend on the professional execution of our missions.




              Military officials say White House won't intervene in review of Navy SEAL who posed with dead body

              "Military officials say White House won't intervene in review of Navy SEAL who posed with dead body." No, not much.


              Discipline is central to the US military ethos. US forces are highly trained to operate in a legal and disciplined manner and if they are found guilty of violations, they must face punishment.

              War crimes will not be tolerated because of the stress of battle.
              That is all Bull Sheet, we need to fight as lethal as our adversaries and do everything we can to win. Not sacrifice our men and women because some a-hole thinks we should fight by the rules of Hoyle..

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              • #8
                Originally posted by 99explorer View Post
                Gallagher fortunately was found not guilty of murder, but punished for unprofessional conduct in posing for a picture with a dead enemy soldier.
                That would be roughly comparable to a hunter posing with his foot on the carcass of a dead deer.
                It gives us all a bad name.
                What do you think combat photographers do - play chess or take pictures of daisy's ? Of course we photograph.

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                • #9
                  Professional combat photographers do not take pictures for their amusement value.
                  If any of them do so, they are acting unprofessionally, the way Joan Rivers's doctor acted in taking a selfie with her while she was under a general anesthesia.
                  Last edited by 99explorer; 11-25-2019, 06:12 PM.

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                  • #10
                    And here is a good quotation from a lengthy article I just read in yahoo news:

                    This scandal came on the heels of other military pardons from the president. Earlier this month, he pardoned Army First Lieutenant Clint Lorance of his second-degree murder conviction for the deaths of two people in Afghanistan, and he gave a full pardon to Army Major Matthew Golsteyn, who faced similar murder charges but hadn't even gone to trial yet. Trump justified the pardons by saying that "when our soldiers have to fight for our country, I want to give them the confidence to fight."

                    Author, veteran, and Purple Heart recipient Elliot Ackerman condemned the pardons in an op-ed for TIME, writing: "I can think of no clearer evidence of America’s civil-military divide than President Trump’s decision to pardon Lorance, Golsteyn, and Gallagher. Even if one were to assume the pardons weren’t a cynical political move designed to pander to his base, they would represent an extreme misreading of how to stand in solidarity with our service members."

                    Actually, in granting blanket immunity from prosecution for war crimes, Trump is acting in breach of the Geneva Conventions to which the U.S. is a signatory.
                    Last edited by 99explorer; 11-25-2019, 09:26 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 99explorer View Post
                      And here is a good quotation from a lengthy article I just read in yahoo news:

                      This scandal came on the heels of other military pardons from the president. Earlier this month, he pardoned Army First Lieutenant Clint Lorance of his second-degree murder conviction for the deaths of two people in Afghanistan, and he gave a full pardon to Army Major Matthew Golsteyn, who faced similar murder charges but hadn't even gone to trial yet. Trump justified the pardons by saying that "when our soldiers have to fight for our country, I want to give them the confidence to fight."

                      Author, veteran, and Purple Heart recipient Elliot Ackerman condemned the pardons in an op-ed for TIME, writing: "I can think of no clearer evidence of America’s civil-military divide than President Trump’s decision to pardon Lorance, Golsteyn, and Gallagher. Even if one were to assume the pardons weren’t a cynical political move designed to pander to his base, they would represent an extreme misreading of how to stand in solidarity with our service members."

                      Actually, in granting blanket immunity from prosecution for war crimes, Trump is acting in breach of the Geneva Conventions to which the U.S. is a signatory.
                      Who cares about the Geneva Convention - our enemies don't.
                      As regards pardons I want out fighting men and women to be the most feared adversaries around the World so our enemies won't even challenge them. Not like pussies like Obama and you would turn them into with one hand tied behind their back. I suspect our soldiers have lost their lives giving the enemy every break. Maybe the next time we have a shooting situation you and the fat asses at the Pentagon should be the first to go.

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                      • #12
                        Okay Jimbo - You have forfeited your right to complain about war crimes when you acknowledge that you are no better than they are. But you speak for yourself.

                        When you suggest that there is no such thing as a war crime, you are saying that the German and Japanese war criminals that we hanged after WWII did nothing wrong but to be on the losing side of the war.

                        I submit that the pardons just granted by Trump ARE just a cynical political move to pander to his base. He has everybody fooled.

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                        • #13
                          Not for me to judge. I know too many who have done far worse and I don't know what I'd do in any given situation. I'm thankful I live in such a peaceful safe place.

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                          • #14
                            FYI, based on the testimony of his fellow SEALS, Chief Gallagher was accused of shooting civilians, murdering a teen-aged captive Islamic fighter with a hunting knife, and threatening to kill SEALS who reported him.
                            He was acquitted on these charges largely based on the testimony of another SEAL named Scott, who testified that HE had actually killed the prisoner as an act of mercy after the prisoner had been stabbed by Gallagher.
                            Gallagher meanwhile, had sent out texts to friends bragging that he had not lost his knife skills, saying that he had gotten the pictured corpse with his hunting knife.
                            The court found Gallagher unfit to remain a member of the elite team.
                            Trump obviously disagreed by reinstating him.







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                            • #15
                              There is a standing order in the military to not denigrate the bodies of slain opponents. This is basically uncivilized behaviour. Sometimes civilized behaviour breaks down during the heat of combat situations but that is at best a poor excuse. This was certainly not a heated combat situation. His bragging about it and posting posed photos afterwards was clearly a breach of a standing order and basic civilized behaviour. Gallagher should be punished. And he should be sent down the road. He's a shameful discredit to our armed services.

                              I simply cannot understand what Trump was thinking. The problem with that IDIOT is he doesn't think! I don't believe he is capable of thinking. Trump chose to avoid serving when it was his turn. A genuine military non-hero. You'd think he'd have the good sense to keep his head down and stay out of military matters like this. But he has no sense.

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