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  • Gov't shut down!

    Are you or someone you know being affected by the partial government shutdown?

    Do you think Trump is right in the shut down or do you think he should cave in to the (D)'s?

    Do you believe we (America) "needs" a "WALL"* on our southern border?

    If no, why not?

    * - barrier, be it concrete, steel or whatever!

  • #2
    I'm certainly not affected and I don't know that anyone I know is.

    He
    should not cave in.

    Yes we need the wall. It is the most humane way to stop the flow of drugs & illegal immigrants.

    Comment


    • #3
      There is another caravan massing in the south that is twice as big as the first.

      Comment


      • #4
        I think the only way I could/would be affected by the shut down is if it caused a stopage of SS payments, and of course that would affect us all ! I know the wall is very important, but not sure the shut down is the best way for America to achieve it ! We must do something meaningful to curb the immigration issue because the libtards are going to allow anyone in, along with sanctuary cities and they are insane in that thought !!

        Comment


        • #5
          Im sorry may sound harsh but, no I dont think he should cave. He is not my favorite pick but he has to stand his ground against pelosi and shumer. And yes build the damn wall. The only way to stop these damn dumb liberals is to defeat them, they are carless,arrogant, selfish, lying pos' that target the youth in the nation with bs promises to turn the majority into the minority, leading to goverment takeover for their own gain. If you think its a theory just look at hiw they are going to snatch guns without any new gun laws, it's in the works right now, and millions are voting for it without even knowing it

          Comment


          • #6
            [QUOTE=JasonT;n700255]Im sorry may sound harsh but, no I dont think he should cave.

            Easy there JT! LOL! You're too young to be on blood pressure meds!

            Comment


            • #7
              Bubba its real, do you see the whole marijuana thing? When did you do a backround check last? Legalize medical pot on a state level, then the feds stop state funding in order to get the state registery. After they get it then their free to take away guns from every single person on its list. Their is nothing that can be done because it's still illegal on the federal level. So in their eyes the person commits a crime, ( lying on a federal document= backround check) then it's a choice give the guns or accept the charges. Research this one if you don't believe it. Oh yea, I guess these damn dummys do get me fired up

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JasonT View Post
                Oh yea, I guess these damn dummys do get me fired up
                Is it the dummies? Or the useful idiots who put them where they are?

                Comment


                • #9
                  That is one of the biggest problems Red. We vote on candidates regarding what is said leading up to elections, and then if they are elected, there is little to be done in order to hold them to pre-election promises ! Oh sure, we can possibly vote them out in next election, but much of their damage is already done. There appears to be very little truth in politics and many of them go which ever way the wind blows in order to keep their jobs and thus there is very little loyalty to the voting public, and sometimes even to their party, which we are now witnessing in the R’s under Trump !

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Red Angus View Post

                    Is it the dummies? Or the useful idiots who put them where they are?
                    Kinda both but mostly the dummies. Their is no term limit on their seats and no one stands up to them. They have groups like antifa out there supporting them acting like terrorist. They are ruining everything we srand for by targeting the youth. They do things that attract young people and reel them in. These people say well that sounds nice, sure but eveything these dummies stand for most of the time can be looked at through history. Let's take socialism and bernie sanders for example, compare to venezuela before and after socialism, venezuela had one of the best beef markets in the world before socialism, a few years ago they banned hunting dogs in the capitol. SOUNDS GREAT TO ME.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There's no point in me regurgitating the media's shooting down all of Trump's fictional justifications for a Wall. He wasted prime time television throwing fake news lies at the American public ... AGAIN. Reality according to Trump. It seems the networks are seriously considering whether they should give him that luxury in the future. Well, all the networks but Fox of course. Even its reporters were left scratching their noggins.

                      This is yet another interesting perspective on why we don't need a Wall ... from the anti-gun lobby no less. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episod...xico-1.4973409

                      Most of it is the usual gun control rhetoric but the point made about how tools of Mexican violent crime are trafficked across the border from US certainly makes sense. American gun runners aren't shipping their wares to Mexico across the remote wilderness of Arizona or Texas. That obviously wouldn't be very cost effective. They are using vehicles. Building a concrete wall a hundred feet tall wouldn't change that.

                      Trump is all about building an edifice to himself ... at any cost, government workers' lives and welfare be damned. Doesn't make sense to build a wall but that doesn't matter to Trump. He wants to build a wall ... because he wants to build a wall. The majority of Americans don't want a Wall. The polls indicate it and the House of Representatives confirms it. The House represents the majority of Americans. Donald Trump does not, and he never did. He lost the majority popular vote by a significant margin in the general election ... a fact that he simply chooses to ignore. You'd think the guy would have enough sense to listen more carefully to the will of Americans. But hey, he's obviously bonkers. Standing before the world at the UN and declaring himself to be the best president ever ... and he really believes it! I mean, what more proof do you need that the guy is dangerously delusional? At some point someone, perhaps in his own family?, is going to have to admit it and initiate the 25th Amendment process so he's moved to a rubber room where he can't hurt people. Put a throne in it and I'm sure he'd be happy to stay there till the end of his days. But they must give him a fake phone so we don't have to put up with those nutty Tweets every day.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Somebody needs to cave, I don't care who. I would like to see to Trump be given the 5.7 billion he demands simply because he won't be able to do anything with it. Alex Nowrasteh of the Cato Institute estimates that the wall will cost 60 billion assuming a 50% cost overrun. That is much lower than the actual cost because the average government infrastructure project runs 330% overcost. And that doesn't even include the ridiculous cost of maintenance over say a ten year period.

                        I don't want to sound like a liberal because I'm not (I've never voted anything besides Republican and am more anti-government and am far more concerned about constitutional issues like executive overreach regardless of who is in office than most Republicans) but the wall, and illegal immigrants in general, is simply overblown hype.

                        Fact #1. The DHS built 8 prototype walls and asked DHS agents to breach them with common tools. All walls failed. With what I've done with gas saws I have no doubt this would not be a wall but a siv.

                        Fact #2. Walls can be circumvented with a couple ladders or a ladder and a rope. Even if there is razor wire on top it isn't like coyotes and migrants can't stand on a ladder and chop away at it with bolt cutters.

                        Fact #3. 67% of illegal immigrants enter the country legally.

                        Fact #4. 90% of drugs obtained at the southern border are found at ports of entry. The wall would not have dent on the flow of drugs from the southern border. Even if a wall could stop that 10%, which it won't because it is too vulnerable to breaching and climbing, smugglers would simply find new ways of getting it into the country.

                        Fact #5 Research shows that illegal immigrants commit violent and propety crimes at lower rates than citizens and do not raise the rate of crime in communities they migrate to. Anecdotes of criminal aliens are pretty much just that, anecdotes. If we decided to never let anyone in because someone might get hurt, well, that type of thinking is paralytic. If we thought that way the interstate speed limit would never have been raised above 55 mph. Also, if I remember ny numbers correctly their have only been six illegal immigrants convicted of terrorism related charges and none crossed the southern border.
                        Update. I must ammend the above comment. There have been nine such peolle 3 of which crossed the southern border as children with their parents. They we're etnic Europeans and were convicted in the Fort Dix plot 23 years after crossing

                        Fact #6. Both legal and illegal immigrants do not exploit the welfare state. Legal immigrants use welfare at far lower rates than natives and illegals immigrants have no access at all aside from emergency care which accounts for less than 2% of medical care. Illegal immigrants also pay the same sales and property taxes as citizens and two thirds pay income and payroll taxes which has given SS and Medicare a few more years till insolvency. In 2017 the Trump administration found that refugees countributed a 62 billion dollar surplus to the nation. That is about the most disadvantaged group imaginable not being dependent on the state when they arrive and contributing plenty to our country. Besides, even if they did exploit it, the answer would be to build a wall around the welfare state, not the American state.

                        Fact #7. Based on previous history, we can handle the caravans that get sent our way (which by the way, there has never been any evidence of terrorists infiltrating). At a time when our nation had a much smaller population, smaller economy, worse infrastructure and uncapped immigration Ellis Island, just a single place of entry, in peak seasons processed an average of 5000 new arrivals a day, and as many as over 11,000. That didn't destroy society, it built the nation we live in today. Be reasonable please, even 20,000 asylum seekers doesn't justify a national emergency.

                        Fact #8. Illegal immigration is not at crisis levels. 1.6 millions illegals crossed in 2000, that is about 4 times as high as in 2017. The number of illegals living in the nation has declined since the great recession. If it hasn't destroyed us yet then as things sit it won't destroy us now.

                        Fact #9. At one point we had discovered a a solution to illegal immigration. In the 50s into the 60s we had what was known as the Bracero program. It was an unncapped low skilled worker program that let southern migrants, many of whom were already living in the U.S. illegally, work legally in the United States. Illegal immigration dropped to next to nothing. Now, if you think an uncapped low skilled worker program would lead to an increase in low skilled migrants, whether legal or illegal, in the U.S. then consider this; every legal Bracero replaced 3.4 illegal immigrants.

                        Fact #10. The wall will contribute to serious harm to Americans through emminent domain and the possible expansion of political power and is not worth the latter. The wall would require that people be upended from their homes and property and if history serves as an example without proper compensation and violations of due process, even more so should Trump implement his military version of it. Those who believe in God given propery rights should disregard the wall for that reason alone. If a right is only respected when it serves someone's political aims but is rejected when it does not then it not a right at all but a political hypocrisy. Republicans need to recognize that they are not much better than Dems on this matter. Also, if Trump can arbitrarily declare an emergency and divert funds for the purpose then imagine this: President Warren comes to power, declares that climate change is a national emergency and desides to divert all defense funds to battle it. Get how this works now? Anyone who believes in expanding politcal power when their side of the schism is in charge that can be abused by the other side when the table shifts posseses an imbecilic lack of foresight.

                        Personal Contention. Border security seems to have had a counterintuitive effect on illegal immigration. In the 80s when border security was lax we had peak border crossing but a low amount of illegal residents, around three million. The reason for that is that crossing the border was easy and people migrated for work and back home frequently. Increased border enforcment raised the cost of crossing the border illegally from a few hundred bucks to 3000 buck in 2009. Once people get in now, they can't afford to take to pay the costs and take the risks of crossing again so they stay and the population builds up. Unfortunatly, things don't always work out the way you think. You can't control everything.

                        Anyway, I used to be blindly anti-immigration so I do understand where some people are coming from. But eventually, I just started to realize that the facts didn't jive and I was being fed a partisan line that was helping destroy my party and sow considerable social strife. My obligation is only to the truth and the facts and not to any political agend, so if anyone feels motivated to call me a libtard dum sack I encourage them to grow up. If you can only articulate your political views through insults, animosity and self victimization rather than numbers, research and reason than you'll only be preaching to your own choir.

                        If anyone can't do their own research on these matters I'll be happy to cite anything I've shared.

                        One last thing, there is no line. If I remember correctly there are 1.3 million Mexicans on a list that allocates 25,000 visas a year. People don't not want to come hear legally, and indeed if their aim was to exploit the welfare state as many claim they would be better off doing so, they just can't.
                        Last edited by Harmonious Fulmination; 01-13-2019, 09:53 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Ontario Honker Hunter View Post
                          There's no point in me regurgitating the media's shooting down all of Trump's fictional justifications for a Wall. He wasted prime time television throwing fake news lies at the American public ... AGAIN. Reality according to Trump. It seems the networks are seriously considering whether they should give him that luxury in the future. Well, all the networks but Fox of course. Even its reporters were left scratching their noggins.

                          This is yet another interesting perspective on why we don't need a Wall ... from the anti-gun lobby no less. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/day6/episod...xico-1.4973409

                          Most of it is the usual gun control rhetoric but the point made about how tools of Mexican violent crime are trafficked across the border from US certainly makes sense. American gun runners aren't shipping their wares to Mexico across the remote wilderness of Arizona or Texas. That obviously wouldn't be very cost effective. They are using vehicles. Building a concrete wall a hundred feet tall wouldn't change that.

                          Trump is all about building an edifice to himself ... at any cost, government workers' lives and welfare be damned. Doesn't make sense to build a wall but that doesn't matter to Trump. He wants to build a wall ... because he wants to build a wall. The majority of Americans don't want a Wall. The polls indicate it and the House of Representatives confirms it. The House represents the majority of Americans. Donald Trump does not, and he never did. He lost the majority popular vote by a significant margin in the general election ... a fact that he simply chooses to ignore. You'd think the guy would have enough sense to listen more carefully to the will of Americans. But hey, he's obviously bonkers. Standing before the world at the UN and declaring himself to be the best president ever ... and he really believes it! I mean, what more proof do you need that the guy is dangerously delusional? At some point someone, perhaps in his own family?, is going to have to admit it and initiate the 25th Amendment process so he's moved to a rubber room where he can't hurt people. Put a throne in it and I'm sure he'd be happy to stay there till the end of his days. But they must give him a fake phone so we don't have to put up with those nutty Tweets every day.
                          Honk-honk your Trump Derangement Syndrome is kicking in again. Living up there in Canaja, surrounded by dumb libs like yourself, you probably DON'T see the need for a wall. Living down in Texas, where we are overrun with illegals, taking jobs, costing our school systems, clogging our emergency rooms, and generally costing three to four times what they contribute, WE NEED A WALL. You are wrong about Trump losing the popular vote, because only the Electoral College counts. You are wrong about Trump's reasons for the wall being fictional, and you are wrong about his reasons for wanting to build the wall. All in all, honkster, you is just WRONG. Now, keep your little silly self in Canaja, and keep writing your silly little posts, so we can all laugh at you and maybe reply!
                          crm

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Harmonious Fulmination View Post
                            Somebody needs to cave, I don't care who. I would like to see to Trump be given the 5.7 billion he demands simply because he won't be able to do anything with it. Alex Nowrasteh of the Cato Institute estimates that the wall will cost 60 billion assuming a 50% cost overrun. That is much lower than the actual cost because the average government infrastructure project runs 330% overcost. And that doesn't even include the ridiculous cost of maintenance over say a ten year period.

                            I don't want to sound like a liberal because I'm not (I've never voted anything besides Republican and am more anti-government and am far more concerned about constitutional issues like executive overreach regardless of who is in office than most Republicans) but the wall, and illegal immigrants in general, is simply overblown hype.

                            Fact #1. The DHS built 8 prototype walls and asked DHS agents to breach them with common tools. All walls failed. With what I've done with gas saws I have no doubt this would not be a wall but a siv.

                            Fact #2. Walls can be circumvented with a couple ladders or a ladder and a rope. Even if there is razor wire on top it isn't like coyotes and migrants can't stand on a ladder and chop away at it with bolt cutters.

                            Fact #3. 67% of illegal immigrants enter the country legally.

                            Fact #4. 90% of drugs obtained at the southern border are found at ports of entry. The wall would not have dent on the flow of drugs from the southern border. Even if a wall could stop that 10%, which it won't because it is too vulnerable to breaching and climbing, smugglers would simply find new ways of getting it into the country.

                            Fact #5 Research shows that illegal immigrants commit violent and propety crimes at lower rates than citizens and do not raise the rate of crime in communities they migrate to. Anecdotes of criminal aliens are pretty much just that, anecdotes. If we decided to never let anyone in because someone might get hurt, well, that type of thinking is paralytic. If we thought that way the interstate speed limit would never have been raised above 55 mph. Also, if I remember ny numbers correctly their have only been six illegal immigrants convicted of terrorism related charges and none crossed the southern border.

                            Fact #6. Both legal and illegal immigrants do not exploit the welfare state. Legal immigrants use welfare at far lower rates than natives and illegals immigrants have no access at all aside from emergency care which accounts for less than 2% of medical care. Illegal immigrants also pay the same sales and property taxes as citizens and two thirds pay income and payroll taxes which has given SS and Medicare a few more years till insolvency. In 2017 the Trump administration found that refugees countributed a 62 billion dollar surplus to the nation. That is about the most disadvantaged group imaginable not being dependent on the state when they arrive and contributing plenty to our country. Besides, even if they did exploit it, the answer would be to build a wall around the welfare state, not the American state.

                            Fact #7. Based on previous history, we can handle the caravans that get sent our way (which by the way, there has never been any evidence of terrorists infiltrating). At a time when our nation had a much smaller population, smaller economy, worse infrastructure and uncapped immigration Ellis Island, just a single place of entry, in peak seasons processed an average of 5000 new arrivals a day, and as many as over 11,000. That didn't destroy society, it built the nation we live in today. Be reasonable please, even 20,000 asylum seekers doesn't justify a national emergency.

                            Fact #8. Illegal immigration is not at crisis levels. 1.6 millions illegals crossed in 2000, that is about 4 times as high as in 2017. The number of illegals living in the nation has declined since the great recession. If it hasn't destroyed us yet then as things sit it won't destroy us now.

                            Fact #9. At one point we had discovered a a solution to illegal immigration. In the 50s into the 60s we had what was known as the Bracero program. It was an unncapped low skilled worker program that let southern migrants, many of whom were already living in the U.S. illegally, work legally in the United States. Illegal immigration dropped to next to nothing. Now, if you think an uncapped low skilled worker program would lead to an increase in low skilled migrants, whether legal or illegal, in the U.S. then consider this; every legal Bracero replaced 3.4 illegal immigrants.

                            Fact #10. The wall will contribute to serious harm to Americans through emminent domain and the possible expansion of political power and is not worth the latter. The wall would require that people be upended from their homes and property and if history serves as an example without proper compensation and violations of due process, even more so should Trump implement his military version of it. Those who believe in God given propery rights should disregard the wall for that reason alone. If a right is only respected when it serves someone's political aims but is rejected when it does not then it not a right at all but a political hypocrisy. Republicans need to recognize that they are not much better than Dems on this matter. Also, if Trump can arbitrarily declare an emergency and divert funds for the purpose then imagine this: President Warren comes to power, declares that climate change is a national emergency and desides to divert all defense funds to battle it. Get how this works now? Anyone who believes in expanding politcal power when their side of the schism is in charge that can be abused by the other side when the table shifts posseses an imbecilic lack of foresight.

                            Personal Contention. Border security seems to have had a counterintuitive effect on illegal immigration. In the 80s when border security was lax we had peak border crossing but a low amount of illegal residents, around three million. The reason for that is that crossing the border was easy and people migtated for work and back home frequently. Increased border enforcment raised the cost of crossing the border illegally from a few hundred bucks to 3000 buck in 2009. Once people get in now, they can't afford to take to pay the costs and take the risks of crossing again so they stay and the population builds up. Unfortunatly, things don't always work out the way you think. You can't control everything.

                            Anyway, I used to be blindly anti-immigration so I do understand where some people are coming from. But eventually, I just started to realize that the facts didn't jive and I was being fed a partisan line that was helping destroy my party and sow considerable social strife. My obligation is only to the truth and the facts and not to any political agend, so if anyone feels motivated to call me a libtard dum sack I encourage them to grow up. If you can only articulate your political views through insults, animosity and self victimization rather than numbers, research and reason than you'll only be preaching to your own choir.

                            If anyone can't do their own research on these matters I'll be haply to cite anything I've shared.

                            One last thing, there is no line. If I remember correctly there are 1.3 million Mexicans on a list that allocates 25,000 visas a year. People don't not want to come hear legally, and indeed if their aim was to exploit the welfare state as many claim they would be better off doing so, they just can't.
                            You, Sir, are as full of crap as an old fashioned outhouse. No other reply to your post is necessary.
                            crm

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by crm3006 View Post

                              You, Sir, are as full of crap as an old fashioned outhouse. No other reply to your post is necessary.
                              Now that isn't very nice. The only response necessary to that post not contained in my original comment is that I'm glad you didn't try the whole "you're so far removed from the migrant crises area that you don't know what you're talking about" argument. Having lived spitting distance from Mexico the majority of my life that nonesense doesn't apply to me. Also, in regards to illegals stealing jobs, worse case estimates show that migrants compete mainly with other immigrants and reduce the wages of high schopl dropouts by less than 5%. Competition with other demographics is negligable.

                              To quote economist George Borjas: “The methodological arsenal of modern econometrics cannot detect a single shred of evidence that immigrants have a sizeable adverse impact on the earnings and employment opportunities of natives.”

                              In the 80s we accepted 7 million new immigrants yet unemployment dropped sharply and family incomes rose. And besdies, don't we, during our current migrant crisis, have record low unemployment? The illegals are driving Americans to the poorhouse argument is another theory founded on anecdotes.

                              One other thing, while you are right about the electoral college being the only legal thing that matters in Trump's election, a fact which I support, that doesn't mean popular vote is an irrelevant social or political indicator.
                              Last edited by Harmonious Fulmination; 01-13-2019, 01:55 AM.

                              Comment

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