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The founding fathers believed that governments are instituted among men for the sole purpose of protecting human rights. Theref

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  • #61
    My question has nothing to do with the constitution!

    I asked if it was a right.

    I never even said that it was a right. I'm not sure whether or not it is. I put the question up for debate.

    I then subsequently asked about the purpose of government. This is discussed the the Declaration, NOT the Constitution.

    Whats the matter? are you afraid to have a debate if you can't hide behind your quotes?


    • #62
      How about alalfa, birdsfoot trefoil, and potatoes Ken. Wheat, oats and other food? I guess somebody must have to decide whether, all things considered, we are on the cleaner track today or whether the government gets to mandate all things to all people. With help from the Chicago Machine and our friends at the Environmental Defense Fund.

      I don't like the term Sportsman, because I've always considered the food I harvest to be the best food availible. I don't consider it sport, but I do enjoy the harvest. How old are you?


      • #63

        Leave the boy alone, he’s looking for somebody to scrap with

        Have you noticed the unconservative minded individuals (the far left) think they have all the answers, yet they are the ones with all the problems!

        “False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicide, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. They ought to be designated as laws not preventive but fearful of crimes, produced by the tumultuous impression of a few isolated facts, and not by thoughtful consideration of the inconveniences and advantages of a universal decree.”
        -Ceasare Beccaria, 18th century criminologist, in On Crimes and Punishments

        I love it when a lefty has a melt down!!


        • #64
          “the purpose of government is to reign in the rights of the people”
          -Bill Clinton during an interview on MTV in 1993


          • #65
            In NY after WWII Cornell U. estimated that less than 500 whitetail deer existed in NY State. Today over 200,000 are legally harvested. Is that a increase in the quality of the environment? Over 500,000 Canada geese are raised in NY every year, that's up from 0 for over 50 years. Are these signs of an increase in environmental quality?


            • #66

              THAT'S NO JOKE!

              I remember see hundreds of deer on the hill side going to and from NY!

              That is a increase in the quality of the environment!



              • #67
                Well Ken, Whether or not the gov has a duty to provide a "clean environment", we have shown that the environment is cleaner than it has been for 100 years or more. It is on a path to become even better. We have also illustrated That the gov can be the problem, not the solution. Groups favored by the gov, such as Big E can be shown to be a hazard to individual rights. How old are you Ken.


                • #68
                  OK Boys, lets review.

                  I asked if we had a right to a healthy environment, I did not state that we did. My very first post even said I often have mental debates with myself on this issue. Being that I strongly believe in a limited limited government, this question has some rather profound implications.

                  Then I tried to get you guys to debate the actual question by pointing out that things like whether or not it is in the constitution or whether or not it is easy to define are separate issues for whether or not something is a right. This is because our rights are not given to us by the government, they are given to us by our creator.

                  I also tried to get clay to explain himself in full sentences and paragraphs, I make this futile attempt often, with a very low success rate.

                  I read back through my posts and the ONLY thing that I firmly asserted is that the purpose of government is to protect our rights. I then cited the Declaration of Independence as my source for this assertion. Whether or not you agree, it is certianly not an outlandish assertion.

                  After all that, do I get the stimulating, intellectual debate I was looking for? No, I get called an "IDIOT", "urbanized", "immature", "unconservative", "far left" and "lefty". On top of that, my posts are either not read, or are intentionally misrepresented.

                  I think if we could actually talk about the government's role in the environment, we would have fairly similar opinions (though I could be wrong). Can we have that debate?

                  and by the way, how old someone is, their political label, or where they live have zero impact on how valid their arguments are.

                  I'm sure there are some young, bleeding heart liberals in Manhattan who think that murder is wrong, it seems to me that their argument is perfectly valid

                  but for the record:
                  I strongly believe in limited government, which is not to say that I think EVERYTHING the government does is bad. As for me being urbanized, my house is the only one on a 4 mile long road, I called in and grilled a decent size tom on Sunday, and I caught a nice brown trout before work this morning, ... So you must have a very different definition of "urbanized" from the one that I use. As for my age, I'll tell you that I am old enough to have finished Grad school, but I am not yet old enough to draw social security.

                  So how old are you?


                  • #69

                    I have now defined "healthy environment" several times.

                    So no, excessive deer populations, invasive species, etc.. would not be included in my definition.

                    Also, I never said a word about "Big E". I do not belong to these groups for the same reason I do not subscribe to any particular political party. They are typically bloated, love fear mongering, are prone to corruption, and are rather ineffective at accomplishing their stated goals.


                    • #70
                      I'm old enough to have gone to Alaska the first time in 1970 as a 19 yr old. I'm old enough to have grown up in an environment in which bald eaqles were extinct. I'm old enough to have grown up in a time in which turkeys were extinct, seeing a deer track was rare, human turds floated down the river on a regular basis, and kids carried jack knives in school without it being a felony offense. I'm old enough to know that the physical environment is way better than it has been for way over 100 years, but the political environment is the worst in ???


                      • #71
                        I agree that things are much better now than they were in the past.

                        However, isn't this a separate issue from whether or not we have a right to a healthy environment?

                        I'll admit the question is more a philosophical one than a pragmatic one. Though philosophical questions are the ones that underpin nearly all of our important decisions.


                        • #72
                          This has gotten really stupid.


                          • #73

                            NO JOKE!

                            ken.mcloud still hasn't defined what is a healthy environment? Of course to some, a healthy environment is watching Opra from the safety of their recliner and a trip to the refrigerator is an adventure of its own. The result is becoming handicapped and being put on Welfare for carpal tunnel syndrome using their TV remote!


                            • #74

                              I have defined "healthy environment" at least three times. You clearly are either not reading my posts or are trying to taunt me with some kind of childish game.

                              one last time for posterity:
                              Healthy Environment: An ecosystem that functions the way it did before we mucked it up.

                              by "we" I mean homo sapiens, including Native Americans

                              And yes, that includes invasive species.

                              I agree with shane, this has gotten REALLY stupid, the argument has degraded into whether or not I said something... That I clearly said three times.

                              Maybe I'll start a new thread and see if I can get some people to actually debate the question.


                              • #75
                                One of the biggest mistakes is Kaibab, the Government screwed it up and they fixed it up.

                                If you have read it in my past posts, you would have known this!

                                Now if this isn’t good for you, HAVE A NICE DAY KEN!





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