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The founding fathers believed that governments are instituted among men for the sole purpose of protecting human rights. Theref

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  • #16
    Shane

    If 500,000 bison cross a river, does the sediment they disurb pollute? Is it only cows that can break down a riverbank? The sediment that carries aformentioned fecal matter is only bad if a certain species distributes it?

    Native Americans drive herds of bison off a cliff...

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    • #17
      Again, terrible example. Count the bison (that happen to be native and natural) that live in North America. Then count the cattle (that happen to be alien and introduced). Similar numbers? Not even close.

      Sure, maybe they did. It wasn't until "we" showed up that they almost got wiped out, though. And whatever they killed, they used. They didn't just skin them, take a little meat, then leave the rest.

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      • #18
        Ken

        It's not just the lobbyist. Politicians brag about the numbers of the laws they pass, we have to live with the unintended consequences which include way too much regulation. Time is the real sleeper in this law happy environment. All change for good or ill takes time to occur.
        It took me years to identify eagles and osprey in NY. I didn't believe that they existed in NY so when I would see one I would try to turn it into something else in my mind. An adult at closs range is impossible to deny but other situations are trickier. My eagle and osprey hobby horse is an attempt to raise awareness of the water quality increase that has occured over the last few decades. As an example, I went to an IDPA match 40 miles down interstate 90 on Sat. I saw 4 osprey nests and observed one adult bald eagle flying over a group of houses on the trip. Soon people aren't going to be able to ignore these critters. When you know that there are bald eagles nesting in your neighborhood it should be a little harder for politicians to scare you about the non-existent pollution, and the evil polluters that they need to pass this new law to save the world from.

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        • #19
          shane

          By 1969 the bald eagle was extinct in NY. In 1975 the NY DEC did a historical nest site study to determine the numbers of bald eagles that had nested in NY. The DEC found that 72 pairs was the historical number of pairs of bald eagles that had nested in NY. In the year 2008 154 nest sites were active in NY. A really amazing stat is that in 2006 60 pairs of eagles fledged three chicks. Do you understand how rare it is to have eagles fledge three chicks? Do you understand how good the habitat has to be to raise three chicks? In most of the range of the bald eagle one chick is the avg. In particularly good years some birds raise two. To have a population which historicaly numbered 72, have 60 pairs fledge three chicks is flabbergasting!! How good does that habitat have to be? We have turned the corner on water quality in vast swathes of North America. Time, and awareness of former poor practices and the ending of most of the pollution, has brought us to a fabulous situation. Fine tuning and observation should be the order of the day.

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          • #20
            Yes eagles are a success and that is a good sign that we have been doing much better lately, but there is still much progress to be made.

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            • #21
              Labrador12-

              Have you ever considered a career as a politician?

              You are extremely skilled at taking a direct question, then rambling for three paragraphs, and not even address the question being asked.

              So I ask again, "Do we have the RIGHT to a healthy environment the same way we have a right to free speech or to bear arms? If so, Is the government failing to protect this right? if not, are we sportsmen prepared to abolish all environmental protections and live with the consequences?"

              Though if you follow your previous pattern, you will rant about politicians taking questions instead of just directly answering the question.

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              • #22
                The American Indian trusted the Government and look where it got them!

                and

                The Blacks Government trusted the Government and look where it got them!

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                • #23

                  Clay,

                  First off, what is a "blacks government"?

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                  • #24
                    ken.mcloud

                    Key word: "TRUSTED"

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                    • #25
                      Sir ken
                      Does the word reservation come to mind?

                      And how does it apply today

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                      • #26
                        OOPS I MOOSED UP!!

                        Try this again

                        The American Indian trusted the Government and look where it got them!

                        And

                        The Blacks trusted the Government and look where it got them!

                        But

                        The Orientals didn’t trust the Government, they self educated themselves and they moved up into society and rely on no one!

                        Man, when you’re tired and haven’t eaten all day really gets to ya!

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                        • #27
                          Ken

                          I believe I answered your direct question above, re the Constitution does not mention a explict right to a healthy environment.

                          My posts have been to illustrate the current state of the environment. The first Earth Day used the poster critters of the national bird, the bald eagle, and the worlds fastest bird, the peregrine falcon as signs of impending collapse. I worked as a biologist to gather usefull data to help those species. Now that both these canary in the coal mine images have recovered their populations your point is what? You need to get out more.

                          I'm not saying that the North American environment is a pristene, untainted, uninterrupted scene of bliss. I'm saying step back, look at where the environment was heading in 1970. Look at the indicator species of 1970. Look where we are today. Things could be a lot worse. It has been a lot worse. I think the perception that we are in a war to save what's left is incorrect. Environmental groups, ie Big Green, are not your friend. More stories, more reporting needs to be done on the sucesses since 1970. When people see the disasters that have been cleaned up, they know the future will continue to be a place where they want to enjoy. The big picture has never looked better. In 1970 when I was 19 everything was on a one way road to hell. We've taken a U-turn. Now we have problems that can be solved. We don't have to sing "The Last Lonely Eagle" anymore.

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                          • #28
                            Labrador12-

                            You still haven't answered the question, I didn't ask if the right was in the constitution, we all know that it isn't, I asked if it is a right?

                            Certainly, our rights are not strictly limited to the ones spelled out in the constitution. Women and minorities didn't have voting rights under the constitution until recently. Another example is the right to privacy, it is often cited in court cases, but is present nowhere in the constitution.

                            (some people will say that it is inferred by the 4th amendment, but that amendment protects from illegal search and seizure by the government, not by private parties where privacy rights are often applied)

                            Clay-

                            Same thing, you still haven't answered the question, I didn't ask if the government should be trusted. I asked if we have a right to a healthy environment?, and if not are we willing to live with the consequences?

                            I guess you could reject the premise of my question, say that the declaration was wrong, and say that the purpose of government is not to protect our rights.

                            (notice I used the word "purpose" I'm talking about what they should do, not what they actually do)

                            ...though I'd be interested to hear what you think the purpose of government is.

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                            • #29
                              another great point,

                              The founding fathers said "all men are created equal, and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights"

                              So, if you agree with the founding fathers, (and I do) the constitution has nothing to do with our rights, our rights are NOT given to us by a government. Our rights our given to us by our creator. In other words, they are intrinsic to what it means to be human.

                              they even used the qualifier "Chief among these are" before they listed their top three: "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Ok then, we do not have a "right" to a healthy environment. A healthy environment is a opinion. My idea of a healthy environment differs from yours. I consider cities a unhealthy environment for me. Should cities then be banned from the US? If you are going to phrase it that way it's total BS.

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