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Are you a "Keith" style big bullet fan or a "Cactus Jack" style small bullet high velocity fan? Why do you feel that way? Have a

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  • Are you a "Keith" style big bullet fan or a "Cactus Jack" style small bullet high velocity fan? Why do you feel that way? Have a

    Are you a "Keith" style big bullet fan or a "Cactus Jack" style small bullet high velocity fan? Why do you feel that way? Have any examples?I have used both and feel each has it's place.

  • #2
    I haven't really thought about it that much. I my amateur experience, I've shot deer with muzzleloaders, a 7mm rem mag, and the 308. Of all these, .308 produces, in the words of ken mccloud, more bang-flop kills than the others. Its the middle of the road, not blazing fast, not slow, just right. I like it!


    • #3
      For muzzleloading I tend to favor the heavier bullets for the .50 cals I own. Both of them shoot 270-295 gr. bullets more accurately and the larger bullets seem to pack a punch on the deer. Not that the 245 gr didn't kill, it just seems the larger bullets penetrate better. The real shooters on the site can probably explain why.
      For centerfire rifles, however, I usually go with lighter calibers and lighter bullets. I shoot 130 gr in my .270 even for elk and the 85 gr. Barnes TSX in my .243. I realize you have to use an adequate caliber for the game you are hunting but these two calibers will cover just about any herbivore in NA, bison excluded. I like the lighter calibers because I can shoot them accurately and a bullet through the lungs or heart pretty much kills everything that moves. The deer and elk I have shot with these guns all died very quickly. (For some reason the deer always run farther and the replies to my question about that were really interesting.) I do wait for a good shot and don't shoot through brush etc. but to me that is just smart hunting.
      It will be interesting to see what the gentlemen who really understand the science of shooting will have to say here.


      • #4
        Huge bullets at medium velocity seems to work pretty well. They don't use hypervelocity calibers on dangerous game. They use old slow ones that launch massive bullets.

        There are a lot of things that can help kill an animal. High velocity is one, a big hole is another. Energy deposit can help, but penetration is crucial, and these things don't go together well.

        There is no better way, it seems. There are just different ways. A slow .45-70 will flatten anything just as fast as a 7mm magnum.

        JLF brings up a point that I have pondered and has been mentioned before. What is it about the .308? It is an absolute terror for any reasonably sized game it gets fired at. It's not a hypervelocity cartridge, and it doesn't exactly fling a huge projectile. So why is it so effective?


        • #5
          Elmer Keith had the right "school" in my opionion."Bigger is better", and further on that thought Ruarks' school "Use enough gun". I've shot deer/elk with the .308/.30-06 and have NEVER had a problem. I've also shot deer with the .270 and had them "run for miles"(seemed so anyway).
          I think it comes down to the sectional density of the two rounds as well as shot placement. We'll see what Mr. Cooper, and Beekeeper have to say on this matter. Like "chuckles" I look forward to their replys.


          • #6
            44 Mag I like the 250 grain Keith 21 grains of 2400

            Rifles I like the heviest bullet load that breaks the 3000fps mark!


            • #7
              Each one has a certain purpose, so I use different bullets and calibers for different situations. Just depends on the situation at hand.


              • #8
                The .308 is a moderate recoiling cartridge and is therefore shot more accurately than bigger cartridges by average shooters. This is where your bang-flops come into play.


                • #9

                  Very good “Grasshopper”!
                  I’m impressed SIR!

                  That’s why I kick tail on the 1000 yard line with my M1A open sights over the 300 Win Mags topped with extraterrestrial scopes!


                  • #10

                    I try. I recommend those 125 grain low recoiling .30-06 core lokt loads for a lot of my fellow teenagers here in NC for deer hunting. The deer here are not exceptionally large so it'll do the trick, and they all shoot the lower recoil loads far more accurately than standard loads because they're not sitting there anticipating the shot and flinching. I personally shoot 150 grain full house loads and they call me a hypocrite, but that's not true. I practice shooting my deer rifle frequently and I believe myself skilled enough to shoot the full house .30-06 loads comfortably and accurately, a statement that my "box of shells a year" friends cannot claim.


                    • #11
                      As a boy, I was positive Jack O'Connor was the definitive source of all hunting, shooting information. By the time I was out of college I leaned toward Mr Keith. Now that I'm an old man. and have hunted all over the world more than both of them put together, I have my own ideas. The calibers vary depending on the task at hand, rather than a slavish loyalty to velocity or bullet weight. I have mentioned before of meeting a chap who articulately explained the modern merits of his 375 Ultra mag over my 416 Rigby, and while he was busy slicing up his eye, I was busy killing game.

                      I've tried most of the new miracle calibers, but don't find they do anything better than the older ones except they often recoil harder. Here are just a few of the calibers I tend to use. Varmints-22 250; small animals- 243 or 257AI; deer-257AI, 270, 06, African plains game-06 or 300Win Mag, including things as big as Eland; Elk-300 or 338; International sheep- a 300 Win Mag, occasionally you need the added range; Cape Buffalo-416 Rigby; Lion- 338 or 375; Leopard o6 or 300; Elephant any good caliber that will shoot a minimum of 500 grain bullet well.

                      Interestingly, I rarely dig out my 270 anymore, and I love that caliber. My newest rifle is a custom 30 06.

                      But, don't pay any attention to me, I'm just an opinionated old curmudgeon who has been lucky enough to spend most of his ill-gotten gains hunting around the world for 60 odd years.


                      • #12
                        I will use either, if I am hunting whitetails in the open country I will grab the 22-250 or .264 Win mag. I willl step up to a .308 or '06 if I am likely to encounter any brush.


                        • #13
                          As I have said before, I don't see why we assume that once you have enough energy to get penetration, going from a .22" size hole to a .4" size hole will somehow be more effective.

                          I have seen three theories for what makes game animals quickly die:
                          (ranked in order of likelihood)
                          1)punching a hole in a vital organ (heart or lungs)
                          2)Nervous system damage (broken spine)
                          3)Hydro-static shock from bullet impact propagating through the circulatory system and liquefying the brain.

                          Since the cross sectional area of the bullet increases only marginally with the big rounds, reasons 1 and 2 are essentially equally likely for any bullet that has enough energy to penetrate. (as long as we assume away things like tumbling and mushrooming which can be made to happen with almost any round)

                          Only reason 3, the least likely, has its probability significantly increased by increasing the kinetic energy of the bullet. Even then, keep in mind that kinetic energy is 1/2*m*v^2, so doubling the mass only doubles the energy, doubling the velocity quadruples the energy.

                          In summary, I don't see any reason to put up with all with all that recoil and those rainbow-like trajectories when a flat-shooting, shoulder friendly round can do the same thing.
                          (and I'm likely to be more accurate to boot!)


                          • #14
                            This question brings up the gretest part of being a shooter. When in doubt, buy both guns and both bullets. Who says you can't have your cake and eat it too?


                            • #15
                              ken I'm more on the heavy side of this debate but as far as the liquefied brain goes, it is unlikely because the heart needs to be not only hit but on the pump to force additional, and unwanted, blood to the brain, thus causing the mush effect.




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