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  • DakotaMan
    replied
    Originally posted by franchi20 View Post
    I don't reload my rounds so I'm limited to factory ammo which is much more than 100-200 fps slower than your roll your owns. I don't think I'll be able replicate your shock results.
    Franchi, you can get HSM 25-06 Rem ammo loaded with the 75g Hornady VMAX bullet going at 3600 fps. That is enough velocity to let you experience hydrostatic shock within 100 yards or so. Ammo is tough to find nowadays but keep your eye peeled for it online. This is a highly frangible varmint bullet so please don't use it on deer as it may not penetrate at all. It is so frangible that it may not penetrate a coyote but it sure knocks them dead. It has been one of my most accurate varmint bullets and is fine for most woodchuck sized varmints out to 600 yards if your rifle shoots that well.

    Factory ammo in 75g is about as good as you can get for varmints though. This is the bullet that makes the 25-06 shoot like a 22-250. There have been many Internet comments about this bullet burning barrels but my opinion is that ALL bullets coming from overbore cartridges burn barrels. Therefore, about 90% of the 25-05 bullets I have shot have been 75g bullets and I sure don't hesitate to use them because of fears for barrel wear. By reloading, you can get this bullet over 3700 fps but even at 3600, they are devastating within 100 yards when it comes to hydrostatic shock. That is what I normally used for small animals like rabbits, birds, etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • DakotaMan
    replied
    Originally posted by Milldawg View Post

    That’s what I used to use. Can’t find them locally anymore. I’m thinking of making the switch to blackthorn also. My optima will print about 3inches with pellets loose powder will be more accurate but just haven’t had time to go shooting.
    These are on the opposite end of the hydrostatic shock spectrum. They have NONE; pretty much like a shotgun slug. I use the Hornady 240g sabots and have shot only two deer with them. I'm happy with them. Both were heart shots. One was standing in a meadow at 135 yards - full penetration but slug split, leaving two exit wounds about six inches apart. Deer never fell and bolted about 80 yards and died. The second was running through the trees about 40 yards out. He never fell but accelerated to warp speed. He hit a six foot thick oak tree dead center about 50 yards away at ludicrous speed (faster than warp speed).

    Neither deer showed any signs of hydrostatic shock and I doubt any black powder rifle ever will.

    Leave a comment:


  • Milldawg
    replied
    Originally posted by fitch270 View Post

    Sorry for the miscommunication ‘dawg, those are the bullets I meant. Same package as these.

    Click image for larger version

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    I picked up more of them when Gander Mtn went out, along with some Hornady solid coppers. We should be set for sometime. Our muzzleloader season runs just 10 days with only one weekend in between at a time when work starts to crank up, you know how that goes.


    I am looking forward to trying out the new Optima I picked up last year. Never even sighted it in. the Kid used my old one the couple times he went out. I bought conversion plugs for both to use Blackhorn 209. Supposed to be great stuff both performance wise and for cleanup. Need to get after it.
    That’s what I used to use. Can’t find them locally anymore. I’m thinking of making the switch to blackthorn also. My optima will print about 3inches with pellets loose powder will be more accurate but just haven’t had time to go shooting.

    Leave a comment:


  • WA Mtnhunter
    replied
    Originally posted by 99explorer View Post
    I remember one Clayton Copper who visited us briefly a long time ago.
    One of Clay’s sock puppets…..

    Leave a comment:


  • 99explorer
    replied
    I remember one Clayton Copper who visited us briefly a long time ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • WA Mtnhunter
    replied
    Originally posted by rock rat View Post

    WAM's from Washington, I think the maximum distance they shoot things at up there is about 10ft, place is full of trees, laser range finders out past 25 yards, besides that he comes down to my state and cleans us out of elk.
    RR, you might be SOL this year. #1 son is coming along and if anyone takes an elk, “Mr. Lucky” will. Better hunt 1st season…

    Happy Trails

    Leave a comment:


  • fitch270
    replied
    Originally posted by WA Mtnhunter View Post
    Where is Ol’ Clay Cooper when you need him? Lol🤣
    Pulled this up on Google as I couldn’t find it using the forum search feature.


    Clay Cooper
    ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
    • Join Date: Mar 2010
    • Posts: 3592

    Share
    #5
    04-27-2014, 09:21 AM
    ken.mcloud said it best! “So, I think that the superior killing power of larger rounds is largely in our heads.(likely testosterone induced) A flat-shooting round that you can accurately place will produce as many if not more "bang-flop" kills as a heavy caliber round.”
    -
    On the other hand
    -
    "We have not heard from Ken McCloud in ages hope he was not carrying a fast stepping small caliber rifle and ran into a testosterone laden elephant that could not spell hydrostatic shock. Just teasing Clay. Kindest Regards"
    -Happy Myles




    Classic post!

    Leave a comment:


  • rock rat
    replied
    Interesting post Dakota, typically I shoot 180 Barnes not loaded too hot and try to put the bullet in the right place, and only 30 cal if I can help it. Then again I do spend time looking for game, dead for sure but they do run.

    One time I bought some pre rolled cartridges for my kid's 243, they were cheap and I needed more cases. They were some kind of super duper varminting round. I have a Caldwell piece of steel that's pretty hard, don't remember the specifics, only time anything made a dent in the steel. I think it was going close to 4K or that's what the package said, might have been a little over. Barrel burner I figure. Interesting those shock waves.

    WAM's from Washington, I think the maximum distance they shoot things at up there is about 10ft, place is full of trees, laser range finders out past 25 yards, besides that he comes down to my state and cleans us out of elk.

    Leave a comment:


  • WA Mtnhunter
    replied
    Where is Ol’ Clay Cooper when you need him? Lol🤣

    Leave a comment:


  • DakotaMan
    replied
    Gracias Fitch... I enjoy reading about your personal experiences too. Mine are often off the beaten path I know but that is because I am basically inquisitive and curious in nature. For many years I had only one rifle and I carried it just about everywhere I went (even in the back of my car through high school). I shot a lot on the way to and from school for years. I needed as many rabbits as I could get each week for my mink and I passed monstrous alfalfa fields on the way home that were filled with them. I also learned that I could shoot many of them without them even realizing that I was shooting. I used the rifle because I could harvest them well at ranges I couldn't approach with a shotgun. The same with blackbirds, gophers and crows in the newly planted corn fields. Not many people live like that any more but it wasn't always that way.

    Leave a comment:


  • fitch270
    replied
    Originally posted by Milldawg View Post

    Try the xtp mag bullets I used to use them. It’s like shooting a brick it thumps them hard. I had more bang flops with with 150 grains of pyrodex and 240 grain xtp mag bullets. I’ve since changed to 100grains of triple seven and 250 grain spire point but haven’t had a chance to go hunting with it yet.
    Sorry for the miscommunication ‘dawg, those are the bullets I meant. Same package as these.

    Click image for larger version

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Size:	11.6 KB
ID:	775758


    I picked up more of them when Gander Mtn went out, along with some Hornady solid coppers. We should be set for sometime. Our muzzleloader season runs just 10 days with only one weekend in between at a time when work starts to crank up, you know how that goes.


    I am looking forward to trying out the new Optima I picked up last year. Never even sighted it in. the Kid used my old one the couple times he went out. I bought conversion plugs for both to use Blackhorn 209. Supposed to be great stuff both performance wise and for cleanup. Need to get after it.

    Leave a comment:


  • fitch270
    replied
    DakotaMan; Not for nothing, but true or not I find your tales entertaining as hell. They certainly are better reading than much of what passes for discussion in here.

    Carry on.

    Leave a comment:


  • DakotaMan
    replied
    Originally posted by WA Mtnhunter View Post
    I have never seen such BS in print. Usually heard around a campfire after multiple snorts of bad whisky.
    WAM, I always appreciate your comments and respect your experience. The incidents and observations I mentioned did in fact happen though. I've spent my career as a high risk, mission critical computer system designer and developer. What that means is the systems I developed and assisted others in designing had to work with exceptional levels of speed, accuracy and reliability or people died... or companies lost millions of dollars in seconds. In almost every case, the mission assigned was almost always considered to be impossible and the techniques used in the solution had never been tried before.

    In almost every case, world leading technology experts considered our approaches to be impossible or at a minimum far fetched (e.g. "Fly a commercial jet without pilots?... impossible!... that was done in the early 1970s by the way). What I'm saying is that I am accustomed to hearing doubters and many of them authorities in the field. Although they were recognized experts, their perspective and resulting opinions were always tainted from never having tried it or from having some vested interest in what they were selling that wouldn't quite work (e.g. don't ask a pilot if you can fly an airplane without them. Don't ask a doctor if you can diagnose an illness with a computer).

    One thing I discovered is that people have a tendency to believe that anything they haven't personally experienced or seen well documented by some authority will consider difficult things or new approaches to be impossible. My life has been filled with doing and witnessing impossible accomplishments. I enjoy shooting and have tried many things that few people have tried. As a result, my observations have often been off the beaten path a bit. Add to that the fact that I depended on my rifle for a livelihood for many years. I used it for not only taking food for the table but for getting furs to sell, getting daily meat for my several hundred mink and dispatching varmints of all kinds. I also did a lot of shooting to satisfy my unusual curiosity about rifles and ammo.

    I've shot over 40,000 rounds of 25-06 in my lifetime so I've had more exposure to that cartridge than most. My observations of hydrostatic shock therefore are related primarily to that cartridge but I've experimented with many others along the way. I was also in a situation of wide open land where I could see the horizon; so many of these incidents would be dangerous for most Americans in their locale. For example, never shoot at objects on the water or in trees if you can't see where the bullet will ricochet beyond impact. Don't shoot into the ice any closer to your feet than you have to and shoot perpendicular to the surface and wear eye protection because the ice does fly.

    I can only suggest that I am sharing what I observed. I would say, if you haven't tried it, you might give some of these experiments a try. Your mileage might vary but if you use a 25-06 AI or a .257 Weatherby, I expect you will see similar results. Nowadays, there are several other cartridges that should produce similar results as long as they are over about 3500 fps on impact (realize that the small bullets lose velocity real fast so the shots must be under 100 yards). The deer shot was luck (after several tries) but the others are pretty repeatable.

    It doesn't take much to try these... simply aim a little over the head of a rabbit, squirrel or bird and see what happens. If you try these cartridges, be sure not to neglect the little 75g bullets as they were behind most of these and produced shock inducing velocity. You can also shoot a deer in the front of the throat with a 100g Hornady Interlock. If you miss, the deer runs free. If you hit it, there is a high probability that you will see instant death and similar internal damage and almost all the blood deposited in the chest cavity. I've never had a deer shot with either of these cartridges leak a drop of blood from cutting their throat in field dressing. Almost all their blood was channeled to torn vessels in their chest cavity.

    The steel penetration experiment is easy to conduct. Just make sure that the 1 foot piece of 1/2x4 T1 bar is suspended from chains so you don't get ricochets with the rifles you try. Invite your friends over to try the various cartridges they shoot. That's what I did. I never tried to repeat the 75g steel penetration so I don't know (or care) how repeatable it is. I was just trying to detect whether any of the bullets I tried would deform or engrave the surface of the metal. None did, except for the 75g 25-06 AI).

    You can do the gallon can experiment with any tin gallon container... see what you get when you set it on a country asphalt road... do you see a variance with the fast bullets?

    Happy trails my friend and please let us know what you experience if you are able to try any of these. By the way, I sold thousands of muskrat pelts and several beaver pelts without trap marks or bullet holes in their hides. I even got bonus payment from that and knowing comments from all the furriers to whom I sold hides. They all wondered how I was getting these perfect pelts. I think you will find that quarter MOA precision is not required on the small game - a near miss will do the trick. You will also find that your doves are pretty well picked when you gather them too.
    Last edited by DakotaMan; 07-24-2021, 11:16 AM.

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  • MattM37
    replied
    Originally posted by FirstBubba View Post

    ....or cheap beer or Mad Dog 20/20!
    🤪😂
    Wait, are we ....? No, never mind. For a second there, I thought we were reviving a previous thread. The topic does tend to resurface, doesn't it?

    Leave a comment:


  • FirstBubba
    replied
    Originally posted by WA Mtnhunter View Post
    I have never seen such BS in print. Usually heard around a campfire after multiple snorts of bad whisky.
    ....or cheap beer or Mad Dog 20/20!
    🤪😂

    Leave a comment:

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