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  • #16
    Originally posted by fitch270 View Post

    6.8?

    I killed a decent 8pt with a 240gr XTP bullet pushed with 80gr of Pyrodex. Hit high shoulder/spine, the jacket separated and exited higher up on the entrance side. Found the lead under the hide on the opposite shoulder. Bang flop. Not exactly a high stepping combination.


    Bigger deer I’ll try to break down with the shoulder but to save meat I look for lungs only on smaller ones. Don’t always get to choose though.
    Try the xtp mag bullets I used to use them. It’s like shooting a brick it thumps them hard. I had more bang flops with with 150 grains of pyrodex and 240 grain xtp mag bullets. I’ve since changed to 100grains of triple seven and 250 grain spire point but haven’t had a chance to go hunting with it yet.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DakotaMan View Post
      I shot a 25-06 AI for many years and continually witnessed the effect of hydrostatic shock. I normally shot a 100g bullet at about 3600 fps similar to a .257 Weatherby. The theory was that the high speed bullet drug an air vacuum behind the bullet at that speed and as it penetrated game, it instantaneously sucked blood to the wound channel. This would not only seriously damage soft tissue (including the brain) throughout the body; it would also shock the nervous system; instantly paralyzing the game. I kept records over about 10,000 shots and found that such shock occurred within 100 yards on almost every shot. I could bore you with data but following are a few of the effects I observed:

      1. A deer I shot in the very front of the neck exhibited a 10" rip in the aorta just above the heart. The lungs were literally disintegrated and the liver looked just like hamburger. Nearly every animal I shot within 100 yards was instantly dead on the spot and never even wiggled an ear or a foot once it hit the ground.

      2. I harvested hundreds of small animals by shooting 1/4" over their head. Their eyes were normally bulged out and they were instantly dead. Their hide was normally badly bruised like someone hit them with a club and there brains were often mushed.

      3. I floated miles down the river and shot beavers that were on shore. I shot them in the front foot and they would drop; instantly dead and completely paralyzed. They would not move a muscle. If I shot them in the head with any other cartridge, they would kick and often roll into the river where they would sink like a rock. I often found multiple compound fractures in their front leg and in some cases, even a cracked skull. Their brains were usually bruised. I did the same with squirrels where they were on the other side of the tree but I could see one foot .

      4. I shot hundreds of birds, often two per shot. If two were standing side by side, I'd shoot right between their heads and both would be killed instantly and they would be half picked to boot. Note, most of these were on the prairie where I could see 11 miles behind them.

      5. I shot muskrats from a high bank over a lake. When they were swimming, I would shoot a couple inches ahead of the V-shaped wake they cut. They would fly about 5 feet in the air and float dead on the water. After shooting a few dozen, I could go pick them up in a kayak and sell them for $4 a hide with no marks on the fur. Again, small lake with visibility to the horizon.

      6. I shot muskrats through about 6 inches of ice. I would pound on a muskrat den with a stick and I could hear them hit the water beneath. I could see them swimming under the ice and I'd shoot about 4-6" ahead of them. The 100g hunting bullets would blow about a 6" hole in the ice and I could reach in and lift out the dead muskrat... much faster than trapping at $4 each. Again, no marks on the hide.

      7. I took great pains to replicate two shots on running deer (both large does) with both the .308 150g bullet and 25-06 AI 100g bullet at about 80 yards. In both cases the bullets happened to hit in exactly the middle of the same rib bone about 6 inches down from the top of the spine and to the rear of the front shoulder. The .308 case never fell and continued to run about 300 yards where I had to shoot it again to prevent losing it in a dense timber. The 25-06 AI case fell stone dead on impact and totally shocked just like all the others.

      I don't see near the same level of shock occurring with the 25-06 Rem but it is a couple hundred feet per second slower with the same bullet. I do see the same hydrostatic shock with my .300 Dakota though, when shooting a 125g bullet at 3950 fps.
      Should we infer that all shots were with the 25-06AI? Beavers, birds, and muskrats? Could I expect the same results om 'rats with an unimproved 25-06?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by franchi20 View Post

        Should we infer that all shots were with the 25-06AI? Beavers, birds, and muskrats? Could I expect the same results om 'rats with an unimproved 25-06?
        Yes; all these shots were with 25-06 AI which operates around 150-200 fps faster than the 25-06 Rem; depending on the bullet weight. I used a 75g bullet at about 3950 fps on most of the small game and simply shot near their head in most cases. You will not see nearly as much hydrostatic shock with the standard 25-06 Rem because of its lower velocity but you will still see some depending on the bullet weights and loads you use. Although I haven't tested too many other cartridges, I suspect that any bullet traveling at these high velocities out to 100 yards will have similar effect.

        I'll add that I have witnessed surprising results with the 25-06 AI on other tests that I never expected. For example, I tested a variety of small to heavy for caliber bullets in about 20 cartridges from .220 Swift to .375 H&H using bullets from 40g to 350g. I was testing penetration of T1 steel 1/2" plate at 50 yards. This is one of the strongest high carbon steels available and none of the cartridges shot made a mark on the steel except for one. That was a 75g 25-06 AI bullet going 3950 fps. It completely penetrated the 1/2" steel leaving a nearly perfect 1/4" hole drilled straight through the plate. It literally looked like someone had drilled the plate with a nice clean 1/4" drill. For those who know steel however, you know that such a drill would never be able to penetrate T1 steel.

        Another test involved disintegration of p-dogs inside of 100 yards. Only one bullet out of the hundreds I have tested totally disintegrated a p-dog. That was a 60g 25-06 AI bullet going well over 4000 fps. The p-dog instantly disappeared in a 6 foot diameter pink cloud that gently blew away in the wind. A half hour organized search by four people for a body part in a 20 yard radius turned up only one body part. That was a 1/8" diameter piece of nose skin found about 10 yards away. No toe nails, no teeth, no nothing.

        Yet another test involved 1 gallon cans filled with water. All cartridges and bullets blew the water cans apart with a through penetrating hole and big rips in the tin cans. The 25-06 with 75g to 100g bullets literally disintegrated cans, consistently melting the bottom of the can into the asphalt underneath to the point where it could not be extricated.
        Last edited by DakotaMan; 07-19-2021, 10:22 AM.

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        • #19
          I don't reload my rounds so I'm limited to factory ammo which is much more than 100-200 fps slower than your roll your owns. I don't think I'll be able replicate your shock results.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by franchi20 View Post
            I don't reload my rounds so I'm limited to factory ammo which is much more than 100-200 fps slower than your roll your owns. I don't think I'll be able replicate your shock results.
            (snicker, snort, chortle!)

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            • #21
              Originally posted by franchi20 View Post
              I don't reload my rounds so I'm limited to factory ammo which is much more than 100-200 fps slower than your roll your owns. I don't think I'll be able replicate your shock results.

              Stuff a roadkill full of Tannerite and have at it. Will require a direct hit though.


              ”3. I floated miles down the river and shot beavers that were on shore. I shot them in the front foot and they would drop; instantly dead and completely paralyzed.”


              I mistakenly remembered that as a deer story. Glad to know they weren’t zombie beaver, instantly dead but not paralyzed.


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              • #22
                I have never seen such BS in print. Usually heard around a campfire after multiple snorts of bad whisky.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by WA Mtnhunter View Post
                  I have never seen such BS in print. Usually heard around a campfire after multiple snorts of bad whisky.
                  ....or cheap beer or Mad Dog 20/20!
                  🤪😂

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by FirstBubba View Post

                    ....or cheap beer or Mad Dog 20/20!
                    🤪😂
                    Wait, are we ....? No, never mind. For a second there, I thought we were reviving a previous thread. The topic does tend to resurface, doesn't it?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by WA Mtnhunter View Post
                      I have never seen such BS in print. Usually heard around a campfire after multiple snorts of bad whisky.
                      WAM, I always appreciate your comments and respect your experience. The incidents and observations I mentioned did in fact happen though. I've spent my career as a high risk, mission critical computer system designer and developer. What that means is the systems I developed and assisted others in designing had to work with exceptional levels of speed, accuracy and reliability or people died... or companies lost millions of dollars in seconds. In almost every case, the mission assigned was almost always considered to be impossible and the techniques used in the solution had never been tried before.

                      In almost every case, world leading technology experts considered our approaches to be impossible or at a minimum far fetched (e.g. "Fly a commercial jet without pilots?... impossible!... that was done in the early 1970s by the way). What I'm saying is that I am accustomed to hearing doubters and many of them authorities in the field. Although they were recognized experts, their perspective and resulting opinions were always tainted from never having tried it or from having some vested interest in what they were selling that wouldn't quite work (e.g. don't ask a pilot if you can fly an airplane without them. Don't ask a doctor if you can diagnose an illness with a computer).

                      One thing I discovered is that people have a tendency to believe that anything they haven't personally experienced or seen well documented by some authority will consider difficult things or new approaches to be impossible. My life has been filled with doing and witnessing impossible accomplishments. I enjoy shooting and have tried many things that few people have tried. As a result, my observations have often been off the beaten path a bit. Add to that the fact that I depended on my rifle for a livelihood for many years. I used it for not only taking food for the table but for getting furs to sell, getting daily meat for my several hundred mink and dispatching varmints of all kinds. I also did a lot of shooting to satisfy my unusual curiosity about rifles and ammo.

                      I've shot over 40,000 rounds of 25-06 in my lifetime so I've had more exposure to that cartridge than most. My observations of hydrostatic shock therefore are related primarily to that cartridge but I've experimented with many others along the way. I was also in a situation of wide open land where I could see the horizon; so many of these incidents would be dangerous for most Americans in their locale. For example, never shoot at objects on the water or in trees if you can't see where the bullet will ricochet beyond impact. Don't shoot into the ice any closer to your feet than you have to and shoot perpendicular to the surface and wear eye protection because the ice does fly.

                      I can only suggest that I am sharing what I observed. I would say, if you haven't tried it, you might give some of these experiments a try. Your mileage might vary but if you use a 25-06 AI or a .257 Weatherby, I expect you will see similar results. Nowadays, there are several other cartridges that should produce similar results as long as they are over about 3500 fps on impact (realize that the small bullets lose velocity real fast so the shots must be under 100 yards). The deer shot was luck (after several tries) but the others are pretty repeatable.

                      It doesn't take much to try these... simply aim a little over the head of a rabbit, squirrel or bird and see what happens. If you try these cartridges, be sure not to neglect the little 75g bullets as they were behind most of these and produced shock inducing velocity. You can also shoot a deer in the front of the throat with a 100g Hornady Interlock. If you miss, the deer runs free. If you hit it, there is a high probability that you will see instant death and similar internal damage and almost all the blood deposited in the chest cavity. I've never had a deer shot with either of these cartridges leak a drop of blood from cutting their throat in field dressing. Almost all their blood was channeled to torn vessels in their chest cavity.

                      The steel penetration experiment is easy to conduct. Just make sure that the 1 foot piece of 1/2x4 T1 bar is suspended from chains so you don't get ricochets with the rifles you try. Invite your friends over to try the various cartridges they shoot. That's what I did. I never tried to repeat the 75g steel penetration so I don't know (or care) how repeatable it is. I was just trying to detect whether any of the bullets I tried would deform or engrave the surface of the metal. None did, except for the 75g 25-06 AI).

                      You can do the gallon can experiment with any tin gallon container... see what you get when you set it on a country asphalt road... do you see a variance with the fast bullets?

                      Happy trails my friend and please let us know what you experience if you are able to try any of these. By the way, I sold thousands of muskrat pelts and several beaver pelts without trap marks or bullet holes in their hides. I even got bonus payment from that and knowing comments from all the furriers to whom I sold hides. They all wondered how I was getting these perfect pelts. I think you will find that quarter MOA precision is not required on the small game - a near miss will do the trick. You will also find that your doves are pretty well picked when you gather them too.
                      Last edited by DakotaMan; 07-24-2021, 11:16 AM.

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                      • #26
                        DakotaMan; Not for nothing, but true or not I find your tales entertaining as hell. They certainly are better reading than much of what passes for discussion in here.

                        Carry on.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Milldawg View Post

                          Try the xtp mag bullets I used to use them. It’s like shooting a brick it thumps them hard. I had more bang flops with with 150 grains of pyrodex and 240 grain xtp mag bullets. I’ve since changed to 100grains of triple seven and 250 grain spire point but haven’t had a chance to go hunting with it yet.
                          Sorry for the miscommunication ‘dawg, those are the bullets I meant. Same package as these.

                          Click image for larger version

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                          I picked up more of them when Gander Mtn went out, along with some Hornady solid coppers. We should be set for sometime. Our muzzleloader season runs just 10 days with only one weekend in between at a time when work starts to crank up, you know how that goes.


                          I am looking forward to trying out the new Optima I picked up last year. Never even sighted it in. the Kid used my old one the couple times he went out. I bought conversion plugs for both to use Blackhorn 209. Supposed to be great stuff both performance wise and for cleanup. Need to get after it.

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                          • #28
                            Gracias Fitch... I enjoy reading about your personal experiences too. Mine are often off the beaten path I know but that is because I am basically inquisitive and curious in nature. For many years I had only one rifle and I carried it just about everywhere I went (even in the back of my car through high school). I shot a lot on the way to and from school for years. I needed as many rabbits as I could get each week for my mink and I passed monstrous alfalfa fields on the way home that were filled with them. I also learned that I could shoot many of them without them even realizing that I was shooting. I used the rifle because I could harvest them well at ranges I couldn't approach with a shotgun. The same with blackbirds, gophers and crows in the newly planted corn fields. Not many people live like that any more but it wasn't always that way.

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                            • #29
                              Where is Ol’ Clay Cooper when you need him? Lol🤣

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Interesting post Dakota, typically I shoot 180 Barnes not loaded too hot and try to put the bullet in the right place, and only 30 cal if I can help it. Then again I do spend time looking for game, dead for sure but they do run.

                                One time I bought some pre rolled cartridges for my kid's 243, they were cheap and I needed more cases. They were some kind of super duper varminting round. I have a Caldwell piece of steel that's pretty hard, don't remember the specifics, only time anything made a dent in the steel. I think it was going close to 4K or that's what the package said, might have been a little over. Barrel burner I figure. Interesting those shock waves.

                                WAM's from Washington, I think the maximum distance they shoot things at up there is about 10ft, place is full of trees, laser range finders out past 25 yards, besides that he comes down to my state and cleans us out of elk.

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