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  • Pmacc60
    replied
    Originally posted by Buckshott00 View Post

    My point was there was a subtlety to what King Saul did there. The mismatch wasn't in sizes, it was in Wisdom and Faith. David was much wiser than Goliath and had Faith in his God given abilities (and promises from God).

    In 1 Samuel 17:34-37 David is trying to convince King Saul to let him fight Goliath and he says:
    “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion (Asiatic lion) or a bear (Syrian Brown Bear) came and carried off a sheep from the flock,I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it.

    Goliath may have been unnaturally large and strong, but David was out killing lions and bears. Part of the lesson of the story is commending brains over brawn.

    I'm not trying to dispute your point, but I think shooting optimization has a lot to with the individual shooter, and with understanding that pretty much all modern centerfire rifles are powerful enough to "kill" game, but it's about killing it cleanly and humanely, and the margin of error when something goes wrong.
    Clearly shot placement trumps power, but for the same reason it's illegal in most places to hunt deer with .22lr we have to shoot the largest most powerful round that will still allow us accurate shot placement. That's why I'm not against the .223rem or .224 Valkyrie as hunting rounds. I think with practice it's completely possible for a shooter to make consistent sub 1moa at 100yds with those rounds. If they aim for say a whitetail's neck, they lose the neck roast but nothing else, and some people don't even take the neck roast (I've heard complaints of being too fatty/greasy).
    I’m aware of scripture , the bigger picture in David and Goliath . His faith and trust in the lord. I’m aware that a 22 rim fire will kill deer , livestock and bears . Mans Faith in shot placement ! I get recoil concerns , I get better bullets and I really get shot placement however I have as well as most of us saw it go bad in the field. Deflections, last second movement , bones hit etc the list is endless. I’m there to kill em , kill them fast , kill them clean. You do it however you want , no judgement on my part. I’ve said here many times if it’s legal I leave it to the other guy to decide for himself. For me I don’t use anything smaller than 6mm/243 and a well constructed bullet. I have no doubt a well placed 22 cal centerfire will kill deer humanely but I have doubts about human nature.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pmacc60
    replied
    Originally posted by fitch270 View Post
    My favorite movie screen of all time!

    Leave a comment:


  • Buckshott00
    replied
    Originally posted by Pmacc60 View Post
    Problem with your thoughts here is the story of David killing Goliath is about the giant and remember fully armored from head to toe in bronze being killed by a small Shepard and his little sling shot! If the slingshot as you suggests was as fierce a weapon as you describe then it would have scared Goliath or at least not been as big a story . Also if David would have made a poor shot and hit the helmet David may have been killed that day. My premise in my post was and is always , you can kill with smaller calibers but it’s better for me to use enough gun. Thank you for the history lesson , I have read much in the past on the effective use of slingshots throughout history and different cultures.
    My point was there was a subtlety to what King Saul did there. The mismatch wasn't in sizes, it was in Wisdom and Faith. David was much wiser than Goliath and had Faith in his God given abilities (and promises from God).

    In 1 Samuel 17:34-37 David is trying to convince King Saul to let him fight Goliath and he says:
    “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion (Asiatic lion) or a bear (Syrian Brown Bear) came and carried off a sheep from the flock,I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it.

    Goliath may have been unnaturally large and strong, but David was out killing lions and bears. Part of the lesson of the story is commending brains over brawn.

    I'm not trying to dispute your point, but I think shooting optimization has a lot to with the individual shooter, and with understanding that pretty much all modern centerfire rifles are powerful enough to "kill" game, but it's about killing it cleanly and humanely, and the margin of error when something goes wrong.
    Clearly shot placement trumps power, but for the same reason it's illegal in most places to hunt deer with .22lr we have to shoot the largest most powerful round that will still allow us accurate shot placement. That's why I'm not against the .223rem or .224 Valkyrie as hunting rounds. I think with practice it's completely possible for a shooter to make consistent sub 1moa at 100yds with those rounds. If they aim for say a whitetail's neck, they lose the neck roast but nothing else, and some people don't even take the neck roast (I've heard complaints of being too fatty/greasy).

    Leave a comment:


  • fitch270
    replied
    Indiana Jones style

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc

    Leave a comment:


  • Pmacc60
    replied
    Originally posted by fitch270 View Post
    Moral to the story is don’t bring a knife to a gun fight, even if it’s a really big knife and a very small gun.
    If you do , you better be ordained by god !! This David and Goliath thing would have been a good Monty Python or Mel Brooks reimagining ! I can hear the collective Israelite sigh as the stone skipped off Goliath’s helmet .

    Leave a comment:


  • fitch270
    replied
    Moral to the story is don’t bring a knife to a gun fight, even if it’s a really big knife and a very small gun.

    Leave a comment:


  • Pmacc60
    replied
    Originally posted by Buckshott00 View Post

    oh boy here we go🙄 I guess I should have specified exactly that the given the type of sling used and sling bullets available David's sling would have thrown a 1 to 2 oz lead projectile at somewhere between 55-145fps which by the way is exactly within the range of denting one's head all the way to caving it in. Obviously lower than a modern shotgun slug, clearly there were reasons that armies moved from slingers and archers to firearms.

    Slingers were used in warfare up until and including the early introduction of firearms, far more common than archers. In fact, most armies would outfit soldiers with slings, and then have special sling units where highly skilled and more accurate slingers would get longer or handled slings (stave slings) because they had ranges way farther than composite long bows.

    Given the investment of linen or leather armors at the time, slingers were far more effective against light infantry than archers.

    My point is the perception of what is best and what is actually "best" are often different things.
    Problem with your thoughts here is the story of David killing Goliath is about the giant and remember fully armored from head to toe in bronze being killed by a small Shepard and his little sling shot! If the slingshot as you suggests was as fierce a weapon as you describe then it would have scared Goliath or at least not been as big a story . Also if David would have made a poor shot and hit the helmet David may have been killed that day. My premise in my post was and is always , you can kill with smaller calibers but it’s better for me to use enough gun. Thank you for the history lesson , I have read much in the past on the effective use of slingshots throughout history and different cultures.

    Leave a comment:


  • dewman
    replied
    2 points of note concerning DAVID as it relates to this thread.
    1. It only happened once and the feat was extraordinary enough to make the Bible, a feat no one here can boast.
    2. He had divine help. I don't think I've been blessed with such but can swear there were shots taken by me in the past where the target animal received such.

    Leave a comment:


  • FirstBubba
    replied
    I think most of this is the point that a mere .22LR can be "lethal".

    Many moons ago, a friend and I were out squirrel hunting. I had a shotgun, he had a .22LR rifle. It was an idyllic fall afternoon, so we sat down beside a log and just kinda watched the world go by.

    Sorry, got sidetracked! LOL!

    As we sat and smoked, we heard the leaves rustling behind us. We quietly turned around and saw a small (legal) buck picking up acorns.
    Mitch said, "Be real quiet and watch this!" as he brought the little .22 to bear on the deer.
    I whispered, "Don't shoot that deer with that .22!"
    POP!
    The deer jumped, looked around and resumed picking up acorns. About 30 seconds later, the deer stumbled, raised his head and wavered on his feet.
    Then he laid down, stretched out and died.
    One .22LR through the heart at 30 yards.

    In the general "scheme of things", as hunters, we want to shoot our game, watch it fall and collect the animal.
    Light calibers, .223 Rem etc, are a bit light in the britches for heart/lung shots to work consistently and reliably.
    Therefore, we most often choose calibers that will cause enough immediate heart/lung/tissue damage and blood loss to incapacitate the animal as quickly as possible.
    ANY animal (native) on the North American continent "CAN" be killed with a simple .22 to the brain. Unfortunately, that can't always be accomplished. ergo, the .30-06, etal.


    Last edited by FirstBubba; 08-09-2020, 01:24 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Buckshott00
    replied
    Originally posted by Pmacc60 View Post

    Perfect BuckshotOO , you embellished the killing power of David’s sling! As I remember the stone struck and dented his head and did not take his head off or part of his head off, a slug would have done such a thing. Back to my original point We can all point out examples of something of lower power or caliber killing. Doesn’t mean it’s best overall .... just sayin
    oh boy here we go🙄 I guess I should have specified exactly that the given the type of sling used and sling bullets available David's sling would have thrown a 1 to 2 oz lead projectile at somewhere between 55-145fps which by the way is exactly within the range of denting one's head all the way to caving it in. Obviously lower than a modern shotgun slug, clearly there were reasons that armies moved from slingers and archers to firearms.

    Slingers were used in warfare up until and including the early introduction of firearms, far more common than archers. In fact, most armies would outfit soldiers with slings, and then have special sling units where highly skilled and more accurate slingers would get longer or handled slings (stave slings) because they had ranges way farther than composite long bows.

    Given the investment of linen or leather armors at the time, slingers were far more effective against light infantry than archers.

    My point is the perception of what is best and what is actually "best" are often different things.

    Leave a comment:


  • FirstBubba
    replied
    Amazing what you can do with a folded blue suede tennis shoe tongue and some paracord!
    ...and just how dangerous the resulting weapon (?) can be!
    Especially when coupled with a smooth, flat, slick river rock.
    Horror of horrors!
    Maybe a WSA? (World Slingshot Association)

    ....and then there is the distinct inequality of a tiny man (David) having the ability to take down a giant (Goliath) with a mere stone!
    (I wonder if David actually passed a background check and was he of age?)

    Leave a comment:


  • Pmacc60
    replied
    Originally posted by Buckshott00 View Post

    Just for reference there PMacc, a river stone or a lead sling bullet of the time, with slings or handled slings of the time had a range of over 400yd. David hit Goliath with a shotgun slug to the face... Just saying
    Perfect BuckshotOO , you embellished the killing power of David’s sling! As I remember the stone struck and dented his head and did not take his head off or part of his head off, a slug would have done such a thing. Back to my original point We can all point out examples of something of lower power or caliber killing. Doesn’t mean it’s best overall .... just sayin

    Leave a comment:


  • Buckshott00
    replied
    Originally posted by Pmacc60 View Post
    FB David slew Goliath with a slingshot , anything can happen!
    Just for reference there PMacc, a river stone or a lead sling bullet of the time, with slings or handled slings of the time had a range of over 400yd. David hit Goliath with a shotgun slug to the face... Just saying

    Leave a comment:


  • Red Angus
    replied
    Originally posted by DakotaMan View Post

    WOW! Do you mind if I frame that for my shop Red? That is the absolutely best answer I've ever heard on this mystery question. You've got to get the bullet predictably to the vitals and that is what counts. The rest is gravy. For some the deer is standing at 20 yards, for some, it is running through underbrush and for others, it is bounding across a gap full speed at 300 yards. For the first two, I like a .35 Remington with a 200g round nosed bullet. For the latter, I like a 100g 25-06 AI. There are plenty more that will work but these work for me.
    I don't mind at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • DakotaMan
    replied
    Originally posted by Red Angus View Post
    I would suggest that the best happy medium is a rifle chambered in a caliber with which a hunter is most capable of properly placing a quality bullet through the vitals of his/her quarry.
    ​​​​​​
    WOW! Do you mind if I frame that for my shop Red? That is the absolutely best answer I've ever heard on this mystery question. You've got to get the bullet predictably to the vitals and that is what counts. The rest is gravy. For some the deer is standing at 20 yards, for some, it is running through underbrush and for others, it is bounding across a gap full speed at 300 yards. For the first two, I like a .35 Remington with a 200g round nosed bullet. For the latter, I like a 100g 25-06 AI. There are plenty more that will work but these work for me.

    Leave a comment:

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