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Has anybody figured out how to get steel shot to open up inside 20 yard? I'm shooting a Skeet tube in an 11/87 (actual constric

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  • #16
    Should read: "When hunting waterfowl, tight patterns at 40+ yards ..."

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    • #17
      I could be wrong then, but the choke by Carlson I do believe that has the flutes is designed to shred the wad cup before it leaves the barrel, and why I thought the flightmaster wads did the same thing. And if you can find late season pheasants that hold for your dogs, and don't run anytime after the first few days of the season you live in la-la land. I just got back from hunting huns, and they were everywhere...flushed 4 coveys, and either a dog problem not knowing where one of them was, or focusing on a distraction just when they flushed, but brought home zero! Skiddish birds that you can't make a mistake on, and I did every time! I will take, but one dog next time. And I will be packin 3" Mag 6's for huns.

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      • #18
        It's all about controlling your dogs. :-D I arrived at the federal refuge in Montana a month after season opened. That place is just off the highway and gets a LOT of pressure. The birds were real spooky. But I shot four roosters (lost one) with five rounds in about an hour the first afternoon. My Britt really pinned them down!

        As the birds got spookier I kept the dogs closer. Once the dogs were birdy I'd pull them right in to me ... whether they liked it or not! I ruined my bill-lighted camo cap whacking Opal on the butt after she busted on three runners. Broke the cap's battery pack. Oh well, it was worn out anyway. She got the message and was performing well after a few days. This year I was actually fairly successful pulling her back when birds did a runner. She only caught one bird (as opposed to eight last year) and thankfully it was a rooster. This year I kept her back when the pup had a bird pinned. Last year she figured out how to catch them. Pearl usually hunts pretty close to me anyway so she's never been a problem. And she's always been the most responsive of the three dogs. After a week all three dogs were doing very well in spite of the few birds we did manage to find being fairly jumpy. They weren't flawless but I only remember coming home empty handed once. AND NO E-COLLARS!

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        • #19
          I had a hunch given other posts you've made that you had the federal wad construction wrong. It is designed like a badmitten birdie, the gun manager described it as...opens up at the muzzle, and doesn't stay with the shot producing a tighter pattern. And the tight waterfowl choke that someone makes with the flutes does the same thing...shreds the wad cup preventing it from staying with the shot. The guy said Federal even tells you not to use both of them together, as the wad cup could stay in the end of the barrel, and create an obstruction. And I did know that lead melts before steel, but for some reason steel shot, at times has to be fused together I would guess. Bird holds the dog, the dog doesn't hold the bird. Dogs pin down birds?..other way around. And easy to keep dogs in range without making NOISE!..using e-collars. Blowing whistles, and yelling commands is a forget it on late season birds of any upland kind. And I shot 24 roosters this season, over 100 doves, 2 sharpies, maybe 5 ruffs, and now into huns that I've finally located. Now I've got to get my focus back!

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          • #20
            This is getting comical!

            Well Dangle, your unnamed "gun manager" is wrong. Perhaps you should talk to Federal about their Flight Control wads rather than listen to what your fellow lavatory librarian espouses. It seems your lack of aptitude in physics is only exceeded by your poor knowledge of chemistry. A load of shot that stays in the "wad cup" longer would obviously retain a tighter pattern at longer distances. Those of us who reload know this. I load flat paper wads for grouse hunting because they provide a more spread out pattern. Because the shot cup has been shed before the shot column leaves the muzzle. Because there never was a shot cup in the first place! I guess you haven't been around long enough to remember the breakthrough tighter patterns that were produced when plastic-sleeved wads were first introduced?

            As to pointing dogs "holding birds," this is a common term among professional bird dog handlers. You need to do a little research before you shoot your mouth off. Check the following sites:

            www.superiorpointers.com/range.html
            www.toledoblade.com/Culture/2013/10/27/Bird-dogs-show-exceptional-ability-to-lock-in-on-a-scent.html
            www.princesqualitygundogs.com/studs.htm
            www.nitrokennels.com/owners.html
            www.bigcountrykennel.com/
            h.ttp://outbackgundogs.com/dogspage2.htm
            www.thefield.co.uk/gundogs/534210/Amulree_field_trial_on_grouse_Pointers_and_setters _at_their_best.html

            etc., etc. I have been down this silly road with you before. Hopefully we won't be hearing this bird-holding-dog nonsense coming up again!

            Why would you "guess" that steel shot has to be fused together? So you can shoot a lump of metal out the end of your barrel?

            Yes, I'm sure every time a songbird whistles or a coyote howls, or a calf bellers every pheasant in the field flies off. They would never have time to eat if that was the case. But the particular noise of my whistle somehow drives them into a panic? Spooky birds will spook at dogs in their vicinity, not whistles. That's why I keep them working close. If they spook at us together, they are in range to shoot. Sometimes I make the dogs heal if the birds are nervous and we're working tall grass or the edge of tulies. I will ALWAYS do that if we're going after a bird that has already busted once. Anyway, pheasants are smart enough to know that a sound can't hurt them. The biggest problem with nervous late season pheasants is that they tend to bunch up and if one bird gets up, they'll all go. Nothing for it but to go push them up again. But keep the dogs close this time!

            Oh my, 24 roosters! I don't keep count. However, I bought a box of 35 one-quart Hefty freezer bags the first day I was hunting. One cleaned rooster will just fit in a bag (except one VERY large old boy I shot the last week - had to cut him in two). I was out of bags by the last day of hunting and had to restock for the final three birds in my possession limit. During the five weeks of hunting I also shot three huns (two per bag) and a sharpie. Two pheasants went into the pot directly after soaking in saltwater for a day and two bags for sure were recycled and used twice. So you do the math. Hopefully your math teacher didn't also teach science!

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            • #21
              Nope, only backassward Ontario thinks that. Seems that when the wad cup opens up beyond the muzzle it spreads the shot along with the spreading wad, and why they want the shot separated from the wad before it leaves the barrel. And the choke with the flutes that a lot of waterfowlers use for tight patterns at distance does the very same thing,..it shreds the wad cup before it leaves the barrel. By the way, how do you communicate with your dogs when they are out some distance in front of you? Is there a more silent way then a beep in their ear from a collar to tell them to come back? Ask around, and find out how many waterfowlers know about that screw in choke. Most any waterfowler worth a darn knows about it.

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              • #22
                The only "fluted" chokes out there are a couple of brands of turkey chokes, not intended for waterfowl (e.g. the Haymaker). AND THEY HAVE FLUTED PORTS! Do you even have a clue what that means? The "fluted ports" are supposed to allow for earlier release of gases TO REDUCE THE RECOIL. They don't have any effect whatsoever on the wad or shot column. The length and inside diameter of these chokes is what gives them their tighter patterns.

                Okay, what you're talking about is the PatternMaster choke tubes. And yes, they do indeed claim their chokes grab the wads at the muzzle and then release them "a few milliseconds later" (which, to start with, is a bit hard for me to believe). Has nothing to do with flutes though. This momentary retention of the wad is supposed to somehow keep the "shot string" compressed as opposed to letting the wad stay with the shot a few milliseconds longer which somehow supposed to cause the "shot string" to get strung out. It's all supposedly "based on science." Problem is PatternMaster doesn't explain the science! The implication is that a wad shot out of a non-PatternMaster choke will somehow pull the shot string apart as it falls away from it beyond the barrel. Well, let's look at the real science. First, what does a wad look like after it's been shot? Like a banana peel! That's because it peels away from the shot "within milliseconds" after leaving the barrel. This is hardly representative of something that's doing some grabbing. Secondly, the wad column weighs a fraction of what the shot load does. Therefore, in the absence of any further power being exerted behind it (by gunpowder gases) after it leaves the muzzle, the wad retains only a fraction of the inertia that is retained by the shot. Almost instantly the inertia laden shot outraces the inertia deprived wad leaving it behind to fall harmlessly to the ground ... and doing so without in any way affecting the shot load ahead of it. Thirdly, the shot should all be of relatively uniform weight and size and therefore inertia should theoretically act upon each pellet similarly. And therefore there should be no significant "stringing" of the shot pattern as PatternMaster alleges. I imagine there is a bit since the shot is not all exactly uniform (that is impossible to achieve), shot bumps into each other, wind resistance varies for shot in the front of the string as opposed to pellets behind them (which should retain more inertia and surpass the shot in front of them, temporarily), some shot would leave the muzzle in the back of the shot cup as opposed to the front of it, etc. But grabbing the wad at the muzzle (if that is even achieved!) is not going to affect ANY of those factors. And PatternMaster is clever enough to recognize that. They say that its chokes' allegedly grabbing the wad at the muzzle eliminates stringing out of the shot between the muzzle and target ... and simply saying so makes it so. Sorry, simply saying so is not science! PatternMaster chokes may indeed produce better patterns at longer ranges than factory chokes, but it has nothing to do with wad-grabbing at the muzzle or their bogus "shot string science." Pffffffffft! The only thing being strung along here is, as usual, today's gear-addicted waterfowl hunters.

                Clearly, the longer the shot load stays in the shot cup, the tighter the pattern will be. I don't see anything in PatternMaster's really unexplained logic (or lack thereof) that contradicts this.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Back to RES's question: Perhaps this wad debate may actually help us answer RES's question. Steel shot wad columns are much thicker than their lead counterparts. MUCH thicker. This is to protect barrels and to provide a bit of compression space for the shot load. Steel shot is not nearly as forgiving as soft lead shot and therefore will develop a lot of pressure going up the barrel, especially when it hits the choke. The thicker shot sleeves are intended in part to absorb some of this compression. Because steel shotgun shells have much thicker sleeves in their wad columns and because steel is much lighter than lead (and therefore retains much less inertia), it would seem to me to make sense that steel shot wads would be less inclined to peel away quickly and more inclined to stay with the shot longer. This may account for much more compressed patterns at close range. At longer "normal" waterfowl ranges (forty yards) steel pellets have finally lost their guide (the wad) and are rapidly losing inertia which causes the pattern to break up into a more normal appearance.

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                  • #24
                    It would be interesting to see what the PatternMaster pattern looks like at 20 yards. I'm betting it will look the same as most "normal" chokes using steel shot ... with the wad hull laying at the base of the target. Or stuck in it!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Yack all you want, and we all can speculate, BOTH the patternMaster, and the flightstopper wad, or whatever they are called, prevent the wad from leaving the barrel with the shot included in the wad. And Pattern Master tells you to not use both the Federal shells with the Flightstopper wad, AND their wad stopping choke. I thought I had it right, but if you call into question my memory in my later years I do question it. So off to the gun dealer, and the biggest around by far, and I never just talk to anyone. I talk to the man that shoots the choke, and knows waterfowling personally very well. What you fellers don't seem to understand is the high wind resistance high velocity shot shells especially create at the muzzle, and what they can do to a wad regardless of how thick the walls of the wad are. When the poster brought up his experience with steel shot that doesn't open up, and pattern at 20 yds., and the same thing happened to me I went "hmmmmmmmm" just like I do with a lot of Ontario's posts.

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                      • #26
                        Dangle, you are hopeless. Here, read for yourself what Federal Flight Control wads do. www.turkeycountrymagazine.com/12MA/MembersOnly/shootingsavvy.html

                        They stick with the shot longer and they do not hang up at the muzzle. They don't throw good patterns with ported chokes like some of PatternMaster's junk. But there is no risk of them hanging up. PatternMaster's website does not contain any caution against using Federal wads. Only caution is against using shells faster than 1550 fps or BB shot. And I'm seeing the same caution in ads for all makes of extended chokes.

                        I see PatternMaster's new line of Anaconda chokes utilizes an even more fantasy-astic technology than their Code Black wad-grabbing ring. By using spinning grooves these chokes supposedly put a "negative twist" on the gases which somehow "stabilizes" the wad before it LEAVES the muzzle. What a load of crap! Yeah, these guys sure know how to put a spin on things, that's for sure. "There's a sucker born every minute." P.T. Barnum may not have coined the phrase but whoever did must have sold waterfowl gear!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Doesn't it seem odd to you that the choke with the flukes that shreds the wad allowing the shot to leave the muzzle outside the wad cup shouldn't be just the opposite of the flightstopper wad? DUH!
                          Everyone that reads your posts needs to make a gun out of their thumb, and first finger, the place the barrel forefinger muzzle on their temple, look up at the ceiling, and go HMMMMMMMMMM. when they read your posts.
                          That's what I use to tell HS students when I wanted them to think, and reflect on something. And did you answer the question on how you bring your dogs back within range like you said you did? HMMMMMMMMMMM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Dangle, read your first sentence and tell me what sense it makes in the context of your previous statements. Chokes with ports (not "flukes") DO shred the wad at muzzle, achieving the "opposite" of the Flight Control wads (not "flightstopper" wads). Ported chokes pretty much demolish the shot cup at the muzzle! I guess one can look at a ported choke with a bunch of holes in it and figure out why that happens! But having the shot cup demolished is hardly a good thing! Flight Control wads fired through a choke WITHOUT ports will keep the shot in the cup longer and thereby achieve the tighter patterns and precious long distance range for which they were designed and which by all accounts Black Cloud loads seem to produce. Looking at the design of the Flight Control wads I can see some possible scientific viability to their claims. Their shot cup is solid all the way around, not slotted like the shot cups of other wads. Little parachutes on the sides extend to catch the breeze and pull the wad away from the shot. I can see that by changing the dimensions of the parachutes, Federal has probably been able to adjust the point at which the wad and shot depart (it is impossible to adjust the drag produced by sleeves of a typical shot cup as they unpeel, and therefore it is impossible to adjust the point of departure). And that adjusted point of departure is NOT at the muzzle as the above link clearly illustrates! The point of departure that Federal has found which improves long distance patterns the most is much FURTHER away from the muzzle than where "normal" slotted wads would "peel" away from the shot, which is itself some distance from the muzzle. Maybe Flight Control technology delivers what it claims, maybe not. But it sure looks to me like it could. On the other hand, looking at PatternMaster's so-called technology I can see absolutely no sense to their claims. Squeezing wads, millisecond wad-grabbing, strung out "shot strings," etc. It's all BS! Nothing that jives with the laws of physics.

                            But what would you know about the laws of physics? Dangle, you have already admitted in a post long ago under one of your other identities that you never were a certified teacher. As I recall you had some unspecified support role in the schools. I'm guessing bus driver? Or maybe maintenance? I formerly taught HS in Idaho and Montana, coached basketball and wrestling, and supply taught here for decades. I also taught at the university level. My students address me as Dr. _____. I taught all the sciences AND social studies. And I'm sorry, but I was never taught to demean students by telling them to symbolically put a gun to their heads. A REAL teacher who would do something like that would be out of a job toot sweet. Teen suicide is nothing to joke about! But then you never really had the job did you?

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                            • #29
                              Correction: Ported chokes damage Flight Control "petals" (parachutes), not shot cup. This causes the petals to produce more drag than they were designed for, thereby causing the wad and shot to part prematurely which clearly messes up the pattern density. Deliberately causing the shot to depart from the cup at the muzzle (which is what PatternMaster's Code Black chokes claim to do) would indeed seem to be the exact opposite of Flight Control technology which keeps the shot and wad together longer. So who are we to believe? Which exactly opposite technology actually does achieve denser patterns at long range? Premature or delayed point of departure? I think I'll put my money on Federal's version. I think Isaac Newton would too.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                No porting. Where'd you come up with the porting for God's Sake. They are little projections internally lets call them so you might be able to understand it. Aren't you familiar with that choke screw in? I thought you were a waterfowler? Don't you have a decent sporting goods store with knowledgeable staff you can talk to? The projections are there to slow the wad, and separate the shot from the wad. So knowing that why would the Flightstopper wad be just the opposite? You are dense. Sounds like trying to convince you that the bears in the Katmai are not Grizzlies, but are Brown Bears. Huntin in that minus - 30 degree weather has frozen your mind.

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