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The "Wolf Coalition" is a group of Wyoming sportsmen, business associations, and insurance companies whose goal is to de-list th

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  • Farley Mowat
    replied
    Good post!

    Leave a comment:


  • Farley Mowat
    replied
    The idea that the reintroduced wolves from Canada are different species or sub species from what once occurred in the northern Rockies is wholly preposterus. Wolves disperse over great distances. Wolves had already returned to northwest Montana by the late 1980s. Where did they come from? Canada, where else. Given protection and time they no doubt would have made it to Yellowstone. They would have been "Canadian wolves." The Wyoming Wolf Coalition anfd Farm Bureaus should find something productive to do with themselves. Oh yes, the size of the reintroduced wolves. Well, they are probably smaller than the "buffalo wolf" that once occurred throughout the West. But they are bigger than the southwestern Mexican wolf. The size arguement is ridiculous. The wolves are here to stay. Wyoming Farm Bureau, State of Wyoming, etc. why don't you folks tell your anscestors who destroyed the bison herds, the Idian's life, etc. that you're going to beg off on this one, and begin to join the 21st century.

    Leave a comment:


  • shane
    replied
    I know that because you live there, you think you have a monopoly on western wildlife knowledge, but I've seen the same things you have. I've been way the hell out there too. I saw no devastation. Just elk.

    Leave a comment:


  • ishawooa
    replied
    Ken I appreciate your opinion and have never issued you a negative. That said I have to state that in my opinion you continually miss a few essential points in accepting the global picture of adequate management of the wilderness environment. I attribute that to the lack of realistic achieveable processes which are the result, more than likely, of your personal environment and social/business related pressures. Example is that Wyoming has no "shoot all wolves on sight" policy although you apparently readily assume that the state does mandate this unacceptable procedure. I simply ask that you get your facts straight before you attempt to BS us. I actually am beginning to think that you must be a federal employee, but then I could be wrong as it would not be the first time. I do enjoy your commentary but am weary of this conversation which is now proceeding in circles arriving at no conclusions.

    Leave a comment:


  • ken.mcloud
    replied
    again guys, real classy on the negative feedback for someone expressing rational thought.

    ishawooa-

    It is easy to turn this into an "us vs them" or "east vs west" issue, but that really isn't doing it justice.

    Living in a place for a long time dong does not mean you understand the natural laws that govern that place. For instance, there are millions of skilled boat captains who couldn't calculate out the Archimedes integral that shows how and why their boat floats.

    This does not make them bad captains, it just shows why scientists and engineers are so important.

    Your opinions are based on misunderstanding some of the basic laws of nature.

    ->It is IMPOSSIBLE for there to be "an excess population" of wolves for more than a few months. (The concept is called carrying capacity, I encourage you to look it up and not take my word for it.)

    ->It is IMPOSSIBLE "wolves to devastate an environment" Wolves are a key part of the environment. This would be like saying that a kidney transplant would devastate a dialysis patient! An ecosystem without a keystone predator is an unhealthy ecosystem. Introducing wolves makes the environment MORE healthy, not LESS. (the appropriate topic to look up for this one would be "keystone predators")

    ->Finally, Adaptive management is currently used to manage migratory birds by the feds, deer herds by many states, and commercial fisheries around the world. It is about as far from "a bunch of crap" as a management policy could possibly be. It is a complex system rooted in sound mathematics that again, I encourage you to read up on.

    Equating an adaptive management system to Wyoming's "shoot all wolves on sight" policy is LITERALLY like saying that hyper-spacial vector calculus is "just like" adding 2+2!

    Leave a comment:


  • ishawooa
    replied
    Ken the fact is your plan as previously presented is workable to some degree and not totally different from that proposed by the state of Wyoming and supported by the Wolf Coalition. Unfortunately the people in control of this issue do not agree with you as they apparently feel this type of control plan is, to be blunt, simply a bunch of crap. I have been a resident of Wyoming since 1981, many years with the native wolves plus many with the aliens and their offspring, I can assure you that the various Idaho posters do, in fact, know exactly what they are talking about. What they possess and what I have that unfortunately neither you or Shane can understand is experience. Certainly experience can be long but narrow. The length of experience of the guys from Idaho rivals mine and any lack of width is because we tend to focus on the wilderness. I cherish this geographical feature of the United States and the lifestyle, of wild creatures as well as humans, more than any other area. Living and hunting with an excess population of wolves yields us a constant view of the ever changing lack of balance established by the federal based bureaucrats due to poor decisions backed up by even worse ones concerning wolves. We see it on each of our numerous trips to the back country in and around the Yellowstone ecosystem. No amount of lying by anyone will change our opinions as we know what the truth is and its not what you or I want. In a sense we saw the same type of ineptness during and after the Yellowstone fire of '88.
    Shane I will defend your right to state your opinion forever. Unfortunately a casual cruise through the western highways does not add much validity to your views. Ken I would like to say that I hope you get your wolves but I would not wish that devastation on any hunter's environment.

    Leave a comment:


  • idduckhntr
    replied
    Sorry first sentence should have said I dont think religious beliefs have any thing to do with it.

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  • idduckhntr
    replied
    I think religious beliefs have anything to do with. You just dont get it your baseing all your arguments on crap. Nobody said anything about drilling I just think you have no clue of whats goin on here other than what you hear on the news or internet. You still are not paying attention, you still think it is about the game herds and that now we might actually have to hunt for them, no that is not it we are trying to boost mule deer #s are elk were doing damn good but if this continues then what do the wolves have to eat.Ken you can throw anything you want at about this but since you dont live out here take my advice dont plan a western hunt because you would be wasting your $.You talk science and that is where you get your info and look on google,well I have and all I see is a bunch of tree huggers who dont have clue by bringing the wolves back in the #s they did is doin more harm than good.The bottom line is if nothing gets done soon its not just the deer and elk that are going to suffer it is everything else including wolves.Ken it doest have anything to with politics or religion. You keep talkin about the ballance well sir the ballance has been out of wack for far to long and now its time that we even it out.

    Leave a comment:


  • ken.mcloud
    replied
    ishawooa-

    I am sorry, I just read over the posts and I realized that though I implied it several times I never directly answered your question.

    Yes, I want there to be wolves in the ecosystems where I hunt.

    Leave a comment:


  • ken.mcloud
    replied
    Ok,

    Shane and I obviously have a very different underlying environmental philosophy than Idahooutdoors, Idduckhntr, and ishawooa.

    I hadn't thought about it this way until Shane mentioned it, but it is quite possible there is a religious component here. My opinions are based on sound science, however it is possible I feel so strongly about them because of my religious beliefs.

    I think that if we were all to draft a management plan, it might not be all that different from yours.

    I (and perhaps shane?) would propose the following:
    -> de-list wolves out west, they are no longer in danger of being extinct and therefore don't belong on the list

    ->Institute a adaptive management (google it) style of conservation supported and enforced by several states. The goals of this plan would be the following:
    1) minimize wolf populations in areas where human densities are high.

    2)allow the elk-deer system to balance itself naturally, target both elk and wolf hunting so that it reduces the populations to approximately carrying capacity just before the deepest part of winter.


    This would lead to a lower elk harvest than you are used to (because you are used to excessive elk populations) However, this would minimize human-wolf interactions and large periodic fluctuations in population size.

    I think this is one of those good compromise plans, nobody gets exactly what they want, but everyone gets something.

    The trouble is that it doesn't make for provocative headlines and it can't be summed up in a single sentence fragment like "Drill baby Drill!!". Therefore, no politician will ever support the above plan.

    What do you guys think?

    Leave a comment:


  • shane
    replied
    None of us were around before the wolves were eliminated. Only people that lived then could tell us what it was supposed to be like. Just because there are less elk now than there were 10 years ago doesn't mean a thing.

    I don't believe for a second that only 10% of the hunters got elk as compared to previous years, OK, maybe just in unit 12, but unit 12 is just a tiny fraction. How about the numbers for the whole state?

    Again, hunt the wolves, but don't decimate or eliminate them as many would like to.

    Leave a comment:


  • idahooutdoors
    replied
    PS, I have spent over 125 days per year in the wilds of Idaho for most of my 34 years, so I have seen with my own eyes the impact of the wolf. Someone who has visited the west once a year, or just taken their facts from what they have read will not sway me. Find me someone to argue the other side who doesn't have an agenda and spends at least that amount of time in the woods, and I may give more creed to what he has to say. Let me stress, I like the fact our wild lands have some wolves, I enjoy hearing them howl, and respect their hunting abilities, but for the good of the wolf, get out of the way and let the states manage their #'s to maintain a healthy balanced ecosystem.

    Leave a comment:


  • idahooutdoors
    replied
    The problem is not with having wolves. The problem is with having to many wolves, and not having a management plan in place. Wolves out in the wilderness, fine, wolves in and around town and peoples homes, we have a problem. Yes Shane there are places where the wolf has had a limited impact on game #'s, but there are also areas where they have had a devastating impact. Look at areas here in North Central Idaho, the #'s don't lie, unit 12 hunter success rates down over 90% and elk #'s dropping by more than 13% per year per Idaho Fish and Game. I don't want the wolves wiped out or removed, just managed by the biologist in the field, not the Judges and Bunny lovers in the city that tend to do more bad than good when playing zoo in our state.

    Leave a comment:


  • shane
    replied
    I was just in Montana last fall, and there are plenty of elk and moose and deer and bear. So many that I had encounters with most of them on the roads. Is that what you call decimated? 10 years ago, there were entirely too many, but y'all loved it, because it made hunting easier. Sorry, but it isn't supposed to be easy.

    Biodiversity is the measuring stick of the health of an ecosystem, and biodiversity in the area has gone up since the wolves were established there. This is a good thing. Being able to find elk everywhere and having zero livestock kills are not measuring sticks for ecosystem health.

    Sorry humans, but we have been molding ecosystems the way we want them for too long. It's not about what we want. It's about what works and what God intended and created. He happened to create wolves. Deal with it.

    Hunt them all you want, but if you decimate their population, you have made a selfish mistake.

    Sight in your rifles and train some dogs.

    Leave a comment:


  • idduckhntr
    replied
    Again your not paying attention Ken I never said any about the feds. I just think this hunting season for wovles should have happend 5 yrs ago. I would alson like to point out that in some states where the deer are raising hell with a farmers crops they issue damage permits to said farmer in the spring who then calls everbody he knows to wipe out the deer before the does have a chance to have there fawns. The reason they do this to keep deer heards in check,do I stick my nose it no because it is none of my buisness what they do in there state I have my own states deer heard to worry about. The down side to this is that are mule deer heards have been struggling the last 10 trs and we have a plan to fix that problem and I'll tell ya the wolves are not helping.So if you plan on hunting out west in the future I would'nt get to gung ho about deer hunting. You also mentioned some thing about polluted rivers hmmm let me ask somebody in Jersy or within a 500 mile radius of NY

    Leave a comment:

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