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The "Wolf Coalition" is a group of Wyoming sportsmen, business associations, and insurance companies whose goal is to de-list th

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  • ishawooa
    replied
    This stock compensation program is generally a joke. I believe that several agencies can provide you lists of uncompensated stock losses. Why do you think the insurance companies are so deeply involved in wolf control, remember we never said eradication as some of you so quickly assumed? I have a neighbor who has been awaiting reimbursement several years for the value of vet bills and loss of use of a horse necessary in his business which was attacked by a wolf in his hunting camp in full view of two people. He has requested compensation but so far his requests have been ignored. I understand from nearby ranchers that they usually receive more insults than the pre-agreed cost of stock loses. This post is becoming somewhat entangled and deviating away from my original intent since the wolves are here and we have to deal with them. We have to fix a big mistake paid for by taxpayer's dollars. We have to save the game herds which are demonstrating lower calf and fawn counts each year. That is why the Wolf Coalition has decided to solve this problem by going on the offense. No I am not a member of this group but I do support them. My question was simple, do you want the wolf packs running free in your hunting area? Yes or no?

    Leave a comment:


  • ken.mcloud
    replied
    *should read:

    because I pay for that resource"

    Leave a comment:


  • ken.mcloud
    replied
    Another note-
    This argument that:

    "we hunters pay for hunting licenses and therefore we have the right to eliminate predators because the take away a resource we are paying for"

    Is totally bogus. You are not paying for a hunting license like it was a ticket to Disney world. There is no "100% satisfaction money back guarantee"

    Think of where would be if chemical companies said "I pay the taxes that go to agency that regulates waterways, therefore, I have the right to dump whatever I want in the river because I par for that resource"

    Try catching trout in that world.

    Leave a comment:


  • ken.mcloud
    replied
    smooth move on the negative feedback for rational thought - real classy.

    idahooutdoors-
    I have responded to your "humans are predators" argument before. Everyone can go here so I don't have to retype it:
    http://www.fieldandstream.com/answers/other/which-idea-will-win-out-long-term-wildlife-management-sportsmans-camp-managing-game-hu

    The other big problem here is this notion that hunting a species has the same effect as predators. This is far from the truth and again, my arguments can be read at that link.

    Finally there seems to be this pervasive notion that if we humans weren't "controlling" populations everything in nature would go haywire. This is certainly true in situations where we have already exterminated the natural predators. However, in a natural ecosystem nothing could be further from the truth. Nature "controlled" itself for billions of years before we hunters were here and will continue to do so for billions of years after we are gone.


    idduckhntr-
    In general I am for a states-rights, pro local government stance. However, being a rational thinker, I know that no one principal is universally true. Everything has its strengths and weaknesses. One of the major drawbacks of the local-government principal is environmental issues. The Feds need to be able to step in to protect the environment, otherwise small, esoteric local groups could ruin the environment for the whole country.

    If you want to make the argument that wolf reintroduction is bad for the environment, please do so, I would love the intellectual debate.

    However, I don't see how your argument that the feds have no right to intervene on environmental issues has any validity at all

    Imagine my state was up river from yours and my state had no laws to prevent me from dumping toxic waste into the river that your children drink from. I don't mean to sound condescending, but I'll bet you'd be screaming for the feds to step in then.

    Leave a comment:


  • idduckhntr
    replied
    Ken,I was'nt talkin about Hitler I'm talkin about the wolves. Are f&g saw this problem years ago and asked that something be done about to no avail. As far as you being rude,I dont care I just dont get how someone can sit 2000 miles away and decide the fate of our wildlife species and as far as you living in Michigans up good for you as I recall you said for 6 or 9 months well you should try it for 10 or 15 yrs. Yes I know the wolf history in my state there has allways been wolves here and at managable #s untill now. Then some yuppy probly decided they wanted to see more in the parks so there you go come out here take picture and go home who cares about the repercusions when they leave to go back east to there highrise. You want the damn things in NY come and get them but sir as far as I am conncerd you have no place telling me or anyone else that lives in the western US how to manage our wildlife.I would also like to add that,yes I know ranchers get compensated for there losses I know this because I know 40% of the ranchers in this area and I'm talkin ranches that span from the smallest at 1500 acres to the biggest that has its own mountain and I can asure you they do not like it at all, so to see we will never see eye to eye on this is a understatement all I ask is that you let our F&G do there jobs you do yours and everybodys happy

    Leave a comment:


  • idahooutdoors
    replied
    "It all boils down to the fact that predators are an essential part of nature. So either you have to support predator restoration or be against the natural environment."

    Don't forget that man is also a dominant predator, and has been for hundreds of thousands of years. We did not need wolves in order to manage game #'s, we had hunters who paid taxes, bought tags and licenses, spent money in local communities, etc... I enjoy hearing an occasional wolf howl, and seeing a few here and there, but not at the expense of other wildlife and our hunting heritage. Hunters have spent millions over the last century in license and tag fees in order to have great hunting opportunities, where is the justice in wiping all that hard work out in a decade because of the misguided passion of special interest groups.

    Leave a comment:


  • idahooutdoors
    replied
    We just want our game departments to have control over the wolf populations. You can't manage game animals if there is a dominant predator that has no management plan. They have let the situation get out of control thanks to Federal Judges and enviro groups with political agendas that have nothing to do with biology or science. It is in the interest of the wolves that they be properly managed, if there #'s are not controlled they will eat themselves out of prey, which in some areas they have already done. Yes nature will eventually even out #'s through starvation, but this will mean big swings in prey vs predator #'s that don't benefit predators, the prey, the hunters, local economies, etc......that's the whole point in modern wildlife management, to sustain healthy #'s that the ecosystem can support, and the use of managed hunting has been proven over and over to provide just that. It is time to turn control over to the boots on the ground that have forgotten more about wildlife management than any bench sitting judge or politician will ever know. Let me stress that this is in the best interest of the wolves, as right now a lot of law abiding people are stepping over the line and S.S.S. any wolf they see do to the their disdain of a lack of a management plan.

    Leave a comment:


  • ken.mcloud
    replied
    ishawooa-
    My opinions are not informed by government scientists worried about loosing their jobs. (though I'd believe that they were the only ones at those "town hall meetings" you are referring to)

    My opinions are informed by professors (most of the Phd's) in biology and ecology. A lot of these people are hunters themselves. These people are tenured and can therefore speak freely without fear of being fired. Though my profession is engineering, I have take several classes in biology / ecology /environmental science field.

    I am sorry to say it but, the arguments I am making are in no way controversial to people with even a basic understanding of ecology. In fact many people may do a poor job explaining these points because they think of them as so obvious they are self-evident.

    It all boils down to the fact that predators are an essential part of nature. So either you have to support predator restoration or be against the natural environment.

    I would think this would be an obvious choice to any outdoorsmen/women.

    Leave a comment:


  • ken.mcloud
    replied
    idduckhntr-

    I am going to apologize for my rudeness ahead of time but I feel quite strongly about this issue.

    That is one of the most ignorant opinions I have ever heard. The logic of your argument boils down to:

    "If they did it in the past then it must be a good idea."

    Lets apply that logic to some other historical events. Hitler tried killing all the Jews in the past therefore killing all the Jews must be a good idea!?!? They used to own slaves in south therefore enslaving people is a good idea?!?! I don't think that your point holds up to any scrutiny at all.

    The fact is that they killed wolves in the late 19th and early 20th centuries because they thought that predators were like pollution. Both predators and pollution killed game species therefore they both must be the enemy of nature.

    We now know that this idea is the opposite of how nature works. Predators regulate prey populations to keep them from exploding to the point where they are susceptible to density driven disease and over-browsing. They also apply very specific kinds of selective pressure that drives the evolution of all species in an ecosystem. PREDATORS ARE ESSENTIAL TO NATURE, NOT THE ENEMY OF IT.

    As for ranchers, first off, they are currently being compensated by the government for livestock lost to wolf predation. Secondly, wolves are not an un-manageable problem for ranchers. People have been raising livestock in the presence of predators for hundreds of thousands of years. Selective hunts, special fences and other technologies can cut down on the losses. Also, remember that a lot of domestic dog breeds were originally bred to protect livestock from predators. Why don't we bring back that practice?

    It is entirely unreasonable to think that nature should bow before the will of the all-mighty ranchers. If wolves didn't kill livestock then storms, drought, disease and parasites would. Just because they are not accustomed to dealing with this particular problem does not mean it has no solution.

    As for bringing the wolves back east, I have lived in the UP of Michigan where they are fairly common and I currently strongly support a movement to reintroduce them to the Adirondacks.

    Leave a comment:


  • idduckhntr
    replied
    To ken, shane did you ever stop and think why they got rid of them in the 1900's I bet they had a good reason and if they had thundersticks a million years ago they probly would have been shot then to. You guys back east think that this neater than sliced bread you come out west on vacation to take pictures of the wolves and wildlife around Yellowstone and Grand teton well I say this Hold on to those pictures of the other wildlife because the next you come all your goin to see are the devil dogs. By the way you still have'nt got your trucks out here to take some home with you have you?

    Leave a comment:


  • ishawooa
    replied
    ken.mccloud: I appreciate your somewhat informed comments but do ask that you re-examine the plans offered up by Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming as well as the cause of Wyoming being singled out for rejection. Determine the differences of the plans and the very astute well thought out reasons for these variances. Also understand that one man's decision brought on this lawsuit on the part of the Wolf Coalition. State's rights versus Federal control has been proceeding and in debate since the beginning of this country. You are absolutely correct in that wolves have always been here as I previously stated in my reply to shane. Nevertheless the introduction had little to do with "balancing the ecosystem". Actually the best thing to do for the Yellowstone area is for all of us to clear out and the rest of you to never visit. Nature and the animals will take care of themselves. Certainly that scenario will never occur so we have to deal with it by keeping the wolves in acceptable numbers. Back before the introduction of the wolves I suggested that they fence off Yellowstone Park from the remainder of the world so the feds could run their own little ecosystem as they saw fit. Unfortunately they replied that the wolves would overtake all the other animals in population growth which would discourage the tourists when they became bored with seeing nothing but wolves. This sounds like looney tunes but then so did most of the meetings we attended when this idea was first brought forth. By the way the biologists and scientists that you speak to or hear from on TV are paid state and federal government employees who want to keep their jobs and have been told what to say. Do your own research and think about what you find. Again I appreciate the statements and interest from all of you on this subject that eventually have an impact on all hunters. Do you want the wolves in your hunting area?

    Leave a comment:


  • KingFisher907
    replied
    during the winter of 2007-08 the wolves were so hungry around here that the local dog population declined dramatically...

    Leave a comment:


  • KingFisher907
    replied
    Hey I live in Alaska, where we literally have so many wolves that no one can agree on their numbers, they cant be counted...in some areas, they have decimated the local moose populations...for this reason, the state of AK resumed its aerial predator control, until very recently anyway...The dirty little secret is that wolves have ALWAYS roamed the greater yellowstone ecosystem...As a boy in the 70's, my grandpa and I had 2 wolf encounters on the beartooth plateau...Talk to the old ranchers, outfitters and hunters and they will tell you the same thing...

    Leave a comment:


  • ken.mcloud
    replied
    idduckhntr-
    the wolves were there millions of years ago, long before the farmers got on the boat from Europe.

    Don't kid yourself into thinking that because these wolves were relocated from Canada that are somehow "alien". Nature does not recognize the national border and we exterminated almost all the wolves that were naturally living in the lower 48.

    Leave a comment:


  • idduckhntr
    replied
    shane, those ranches were there before the wolves like let say 150yrs, theres a reason they shot them back then and that was to make a living I dont know how you want them to raise beef to sell when the wolves are killing more than they can sell. I said before you want back east then get your ass out here and take them home we are tirred of them and people who live 2000 miles away telling us that there is nothing wrong with are big game heards.

    Leave a comment:

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