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The "Wolf Coalition" is a group of Wyoming sportsmen, business associations, and insurance companies whose goal is to de-list th

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  • #16
    We just want our game departments to have control over the wolf populations. You can't manage game animals if there is a dominant predator that has no management plan. They have let the situation get out of control thanks to Federal Judges and enviro groups with political agendas that have nothing to do with biology or science. It is in the interest of the wolves that they be properly managed, if there #'s are not controlled they will eat themselves out of prey, which in some areas they have already done. Yes nature will eventually even out #'s through starvation, but this will mean big swings in prey vs predator #'s that don't benefit predators, the prey, the hunters, local economies, etc......that's the whole point in modern wildlife management, to sustain healthy #'s that the ecosystem can support, and the use of managed hunting has been proven over and over to provide just that. It is time to turn control over to the boots on the ground that have forgotten more about wildlife management than any bench sitting judge or politician will ever know. Let me stress that this is in the best interest of the wolves, as right now a lot of law abiding people are stepping over the line and S.S.S. any wolf they see do to the their disdain of a lack of a management plan.


    • #17
      "It all boils down to the fact that predators are an essential part of nature. So either you have to support predator restoration or be against the natural environment."

      Don't forget that man is also a dominant predator, and has been for hundreds of thousands of years. We did not need wolves in order to manage game #'s, we had hunters who paid taxes, bought tags and licenses, spent money in local communities, etc... I enjoy hearing an occasional wolf howl, and seeing a few here and there, but not at the expense of other wildlife and our hunting heritage. Hunters have spent millions over the last century in license and tag fees in order to have great hunting opportunities, where is the justice in wiping all that hard work out in a decade because of the misguided passion of special interest groups.


      • #18
        Ken,I was'nt talkin about Hitler I'm talkin about the wolves. Are f&g saw this problem years ago and asked that something be done about to no avail. As far as you being rude,I dont care I just dont get how someone can sit 2000 miles away and decide the fate of our wildlife species and as far as you living in Michigans up good for you as I recall you said for 6 or 9 months well you should try it for 10 or 15 yrs. Yes I know the wolf history in my state there has allways been wolves here and at managable #s untill now. Then some yuppy probly decided they wanted to see more in the parks so there you go come out here take picture and go home who cares about the repercusions when they leave to go back east to there highrise. You want the damn things in NY come and get them but sir as far as I am conncerd you have no place telling me or anyone else that lives in the western US how to manage our wildlife.I would also like to add that,yes I know ranchers get compensated for there losses I know this because I know 40% of the ranchers in this area and I'm talkin ranches that span from the smallest at 1500 acres to the biggest that has its own mountain and I can asure you they do not like it at all, so to see we will never see eye to eye on this is a understatement all I ask is that you let our F&G do there jobs you do yours and everybodys happy


        • #19
          smooth move on the negative feedback for rational thought - real classy.

          I have responded to your "humans are predators" argument before. Everyone can go here so I don't have to retype it:

          The other big problem here is this notion that hunting a species has the same effect as predators. This is far from the truth and again, my arguments can be read at that link.

          Finally there seems to be this pervasive notion that if we humans weren't "controlling" populations everything in nature would go haywire. This is certainly true in situations where we have already exterminated the natural predators. However, in a natural ecosystem nothing could be further from the truth. Nature "controlled" itself for billions of years before we hunters were here and will continue to do so for billions of years after we are gone.

          In general I am for a states-rights, pro local government stance. However, being a rational thinker, I know that no one principal is universally true. Everything has its strengths and weaknesses. One of the major drawbacks of the local-government principal is environmental issues. The Feds need to be able to step in to protect the environment, otherwise small, esoteric local groups could ruin the environment for the whole country.

          If you want to make the argument that wolf reintroduction is bad for the environment, please do so, I would love the intellectual debate.

          However, I don't see how your argument that the feds have no right to intervene on environmental issues has any validity at all

          Imagine my state was up river from yours and my state had no laws to prevent me from dumping toxic waste into the river that your children drink from. I don't mean to sound condescending, but I'll bet you'd be screaming for the feds to step in then.


          • #20
            Another note-
            This argument that:

            "we hunters pay for hunting licenses and therefore we have the right to eliminate predators because the take away a resource we are paying for"

            Is totally bogus. You are not paying for a hunting license like it was a ticket to Disney world. There is no "100% satisfaction money back guarantee"

            Think of where would be if chemical companies said "I pay the taxes that go to agency that regulates waterways, therefore, I have the right to dump whatever I want in the river because I par for that resource"

            Try catching trout in that world.


            • #21
              *should read:

              because I pay for that resource"


              • #22
                This stock compensation program is generally a joke. I believe that several agencies can provide you lists of uncompensated stock losses. Why do you think the insurance companies are so deeply involved in wolf control, remember we never said eradication as some of you so quickly assumed? I have a neighbor who has been awaiting reimbursement several years for the value of vet bills and loss of use of a horse necessary in his business which was attacked by a wolf in his hunting camp in full view of two people. He has requested compensation but so far his requests have been ignored. I understand from nearby ranchers that they usually receive more insults than the pre-agreed cost of stock loses. This post is becoming somewhat entangled and deviating away from my original intent since the wolves are here and we have to deal with them. We have to fix a big mistake paid for by taxpayer's dollars. We have to save the game herds which are demonstrating lower calf and fawn counts each year. That is why the Wolf Coalition has decided to solve this problem by going on the offense. No I am not a member of this group but I do support them. My question was simple, do you want the wolf packs running free in your hunting area? Yes or no?


                • #23
                  Again your not paying attention Ken I never said any about the feds. I just think this hunting season for wovles should have happend 5 yrs ago. I would alson like to point out that in some states where the deer are raising hell with a farmers crops they issue damage permits to said farmer in the spring who then calls everbody he knows to wipe out the deer before the does have a chance to have there fawns. The reason they do this to keep deer heards in check,do I stick my nose it no because it is none of my buisness what they do in there state I have my own states deer heard to worry about. The down side to this is that are mule deer heards have been struggling the last 10 trs and we have a plan to fix that problem and I'll tell ya the wolves are not helping.So if you plan on hunting out west in the future I would'nt get to gung ho about deer hunting. You also mentioned some thing about polluted rivers hmmm let me ask somebody in Jersy or within a 500 mile radius of NY


                  • #24
                    I was just in Montana last fall, and there are plenty of elk and moose and deer and bear. So many that I had encounters with most of them on the roads. Is that what you call decimated? 10 years ago, there were entirely too many, but y'all loved it, because it made hunting easier. Sorry, but it isn't supposed to be easy.

                    Biodiversity is the measuring stick of the health of an ecosystem, and biodiversity in the area has gone up since the wolves were established there. This is a good thing. Being able to find elk everywhere and having zero livestock kills are not measuring sticks for ecosystem health.

                    Sorry humans, but we have been molding ecosystems the way we want them for too long. It's not about what we want. It's about what works and what God intended and created. He happened to create wolves. Deal with it.

                    Hunt them all you want, but if you decimate their population, you have made a selfish mistake.

                    Sight in your rifles and train some dogs.


                    • #25
                      The problem is not with having wolves. The problem is with having to many wolves, and not having a management plan in place. Wolves out in the wilderness, fine, wolves in and around town and peoples homes, we have a problem. Yes Shane there are places where the wolf has had a limited impact on game #'s, but there are also areas where they have had a devastating impact. Look at areas here in North Central Idaho, the #'s don't lie, unit 12 hunter success rates down over 90% and elk #'s dropping by more than 13% per year per Idaho Fish and Game. I don't want the wolves wiped out or removed, just managed by the biologist in the field, not the Judges and Bunny lovers in the city that tend to do more bad than good when playing zoo in our state.


                      • #26
                        PS, I have spent over 125 days per year in the wilds of Idaho for most of my 34 years, so I have seen with my own eyes the impact of the wolf. Someone who has visited the west once a year, or just taken their facts from what they have read will not sway me. Find me someone to argue the other side who doesn't have an agenda and spends at least that amount of time in the woods, and I may give more creed to what he has to say. Let me stress, I like the fact our wild lands have some wolves, I enjoy hearing them howl, and respect their hunting abilities, but for the good of the wolf, get out of the way and let the states manage their #'s to maintain a healthy balanced ecosystem.


                        • #27
                          None of us were around before the wolves were eliminated. Only people that lived then could tell us what it was supposed to be like. Just because there are less elk now than there were 10 years ago doesn't mean a thing.

                          I don't believe for a second that only 10% of the hunters got elk as compared to previous years, OK, maybe just in unit 12, but unit 12 is just a tiny fraction. How about the numbers for the whole state?

                          Again, hunt the wolves, but don't decimate or eliminate them as many would like to.


                          • #28

                            Shane and I obviously have a very different underlying environmental philosophy than Idahooutdoors, Idduckhntr, and ishawooa.

                            I hadn't thought about it this way until Shane mentioned it, but it is quite possible there is a religious component here. My opinions are based on sound science, however it is possible I feel so strongly about them because of my religious beliefs.

                            I think that if we were all to draft a management plan, it might not be all that different from yours.

                            I (and perhaps shane?) would propose the following:
                            -> de-list wolves out west, they are no longer in danger of being extinct and therefore don't belong on the list

                            ->Institute a adaptive management (google it) style of conservation supported and enforced by several states. The goals of this plan would be the following:
                            1) minimize wolf populations in areas where human densities are high.

                            2)allow the elk-deer system to balance itself naturally, target both elk and wolf hunting so that it reduces the populations to approximately carrying capacity just before the deepest part of winter.

                            This would lead to a lower elk harvest than you are used to (because you are used to excessive elk populations) However, this would minimize human-wolf interactions and large periodic fluctuations in population size.

                            I think this is one of those good compromise plans, nobody gets exactly what they want, but everyone gets something.

                            The trouble is that it doesn't make for provocative headlines and it can't be summed up in a single sentence fragment like "Drill baby Drill!!". Therefore, no politician will ever support the above plan.

                            What do you guys think?


                            • #29

                              I am sorry, I just read over the posts and I realized that though I implied it several times I never directly answered your question.

                              Yes, I want there to be wolves in the ecosystems where I hunt.


                              • #30
                                I think religious beliefs have anything to do with. You just dont get it your baseing all your arguments on crap. Nobody said anything about drilling I just think you have no clue of whats goin on here other than what you hear on the news or internet. You still are not paying attention, you still think it is about the game herds and that now we might actually have to hunt for them, no that is not it we are trying to boost mule deer #s are elk were doing damn good but if this continues then what do the wolves have to eat.Ken you can throw anything you want at about this but since you dont live out here take my advice dont plan a western hunt because you would be wasting your $.You talk science and that is where you get your info and look on google,well I have and all I see is a bunch of tree huggers who dont have clue by bringing the wolves back in the #s they did is doin more harm than good.The bottom line is if nothing gets done soon its not just the deer and elk that are going to suffer it is everything else including wolves.Ken it doest have anything to with politics or religion. You keep talkin about the ballance well sir the ballance has been out of wack for far to long and now its time that we even it out.




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