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Do you think Roy Weatherby was right about extreme bullet velocity having more killing or "shocking" power? What has your experi

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  • Do you think Roy Weatherby was right about extreme bullet velocity having more killing or "shocking" power? What has your experi

    Do you think Roy Weatherby was right about extreme bullet velocity having more killing or "shocking" power? What has your experience been with "Bang Flops"? Is there a magic speed that seems to make a noticeable difference for you? 3,000 fps, 3,500 fps, 4,000+?

  • #2
    I think blazing fast bullets can give you plenty of bang flops, but the .444 Marlin has dropped everything I've ever seen hit with it instantly, and it's slow as hell. Same goes for .45-70. This is quite the mystery. What makes for a really fast killer of a cartridge? Fast works, and big and heavy works too. So which is better?

    Comment


    • #3
      What kills an animal is shutting off brain function. This can be accomplished by taking out the part of the cardiovascular system and thereby cutting off oxygen supply to the brain, or you can destroy part of the nervous system which will also cut the lights off. However, no caliber will "sweep" an animal off its feet. Mr. Petzal wrote an absolutely excellent article on that exactly a few years back. He talks about a small doe getting shot with a .300wsm and running 200 yards, and another getting shot with a .243 and hitting the dirt instantly.

      Comment


      • #4
        There are two categories of BAN FLOP! Slow Ultra Big Calibers at 2000fps that leave massive wound channel and bone breaking results for dangerous game. The second is High Velocity Calibers 3000plus that hit with massive “Hydrostatic Shock” causing massive tissue destruction and hemorrhaging. If you compare the destruction of force between a 45-70 to a 22-250, centered lung shot on a Mule Deer, you’ll will find bullet pass-through, massive wound channel and blood loss with the 45-70 and the inside with a 22-250 you will find the lungs totally destroyed like a grenade went off!

        The answer is YES!

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        • #5
          BAN FLOP? YA YA I KNOW!! LOL BANG FLOP!

          I know a person that wrights with a $100 plus pen and you would think it would have spec lhecker, RIGHT!

          Comment


          • #6
            Roy Weatherby was flamboyant and quite the showman. Early on in the promotions of his high speed rounds he stated that speed was everything, speed kills, a high speed bullet of his passing over the backline of a deer would kill it.

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            • #7
              There is also a study out there that says it depends on the valves of the heart more than anything. Valves open over pressure to the brain and massive brain hemorraging, valve closed and the brain survives and you must rely on the internal damage and blood loss. Soooo 50/50 shot of Bang, Flop. I'll see if I can find the post that I qouted it. Its been several moons ago.

              Comment


              • #8
                From experiance I can honestly say what ever your shootin at doesnt give a rats ass what you have at that givin time dead is dead. I have killed deer with the folling rounds 243,30.06,7mmWby and 270Wby from ranges at 10 yards to 500 and everyone of the fell over without a problem. I have since started to load 175 Noslers in my 7mmWby at 2988 its accurate but not screamin hot and will knock over anything.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Proper bullet weight and construction combined with precise placement have more to do with instantly dropping an animal than does velocity. Velocity usually makes the long range shots easier since the trajectory is more flat than a slow heavy bullet which obviously is a positive for placement. The best combination is a fast heavy bullet but there are disadvantages associated with that choice also.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Only one of my bucks was a bang-flop, with my '06 at about 2800 fps +/-. Others shot with the same round have gone 50 or 60 yds which is common with lung shot game.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I love to hunt deer with muzzleloaders, particularly period correct side hammer percussion and flintlock rifles. I use real black powder in them under a patched soft lead, round ball, no "Maxi Balls". My deer hunting rifles are .50 caliber (.490 diameter 177 grain), .54 caliber (.530 diameter, 230 grain) and .58 caliber (.570 diameter, 279 grain).

                      Velocities for the three with a hunting load of black powder are 1800-1900 for the .50, 1600-1700 for the .54 and 1300-1400 for the .58. I'll despense with the foot pounds of energy because I'm convinced that foot pounds do not kill an animal.

                      Shots on game with these rifles and loads are less than 100 yards. Deer and feral swine shot with any of these rifles usually fall at impact,bang/flop as you say. Shots are confined to the heart/lung area. If they run at all it is a 10-20 yard stumble. I've only had to blood trail one animal; a small coastal whitetail hit square through the boiler room.

                      Round balls tends to flatten on impact. They make a large wound channel and if placed appropiately, create a large amount of blood loss, thus rapid blood pressure loss and unconsciousness. No "meat" is shot up in the process from hydrostatic shock.

                      My experience has been the same with deer and feral hogs shot with a .44 mag handgun with 240-300 grain bullets. Velocity ranges are less than that of the muzzleloaders. Put the bullets in the vitals they fall, end of story.

                      I've shot a great deal of game animals with high velocity rounds, particularly the .25/06. I've had my share of bang flops, but I've also had animals which were calm at the shot bolt and run a hundred yards or more hit squarely through the vitals. One whitetail of note ran over 200 yards before falling. It did not leave much of a blood trail even with a Quarter sized exit hole. On recovery and field dressing the contents of the chest cavity were poured out, the heart in 5 pieces and aorta shredded...

                      Mr. Weatherby was a grand showman and promoter as some one remarked. He found his nich and he worked it very effectively, even convincing the shooting public that the silly belt around the head of the cartridge meant raw power.

                      Animals sill were and are dispatched with lesser rounds at far lesser velocities. Speed may kill if you are flying a fighter jet, but in the hunting fields it all comes down to perforating the vitals properly.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Great comments guys... thanks. I must admit, I have been harboring an opinion that speed kills with a little something extra. I have had so many bang flops with my old 25-06. For the first deer I shot with my old .25-06 improved, I was shooting prairie dogs during deer season with 87g bullets at about 3600 fps. A nice deer presented itself about 100 yards across the canyon but all I could see was it's neck through the cover. I decided that one movement would put it out of sight so I shot the neck. The deer dropped flat and never moved a muscle. The bullet grazed the front of the neck. Almost a miss... however, it put a 10" tear in the aorta and turned the lungs to mush. The liver was jelly. That was when I started noticing the effect of speed. I have seen quite a bit of that effect over the years and can see why Clay is probably of a similar opinion. The last two deer I have shot however defy that logic. Both were shot with 100 grain bullets going about 3250 fps. One was at 30 yards (highly spooked and bounding fast) hit in mid chest went 120 yards. One at 80 yards relaxed, shot dead center heart and ran 90 yards with broken front shoulders. Those were the first that I have had move a muscle but they both got lots of velocity and they both took off like there was no tomorrow. There seems to be no doubt that good shot placement can't be beat though. Sounds like we all have had quite a few good humane bang flops that way.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Beekeeper View Post
                          I love to hunt deer with muzzleloaders, particularly period correct side hammer percussion and flintlock rifles. I use real black powder in them under a patched soft lead, round ball, no "Maxi Balls". My deer hunting rifles are .50 caliber (.490 diameter 177 grain), .54 caliber (.530 diameter, 230 grain) and .58 caliber (.570 diameter, 279 grain).

                          Velocities for the three with a hunting load of black powder are 1800-1900 for the .50, 1600-1700 for the .54 and 1300-1400 for the .58. I'll despense with the foot pounds of energy because I'm convinced that foot pounds do not kill an animal.

                          Shots on game with these rifles and loads are less than 100 yards. Deer and feral swine shot with any of these rifles usually fall at impact,bang/flop as you say. Shots are confined to the heart/lung area. If they run at all it is a 10-20 yard stumble. I've only had to blood trail one animal; a small coastal whitetail hit square through the boiler room.

                          Round balls tends to flatten on impact. They make a large wound channel and if placed appropiately, create a large amount of blood loss, thus rapid blood pressure loss and unconsciousness. No "meat" is shot up in the process from hydrostatic shock.

                          My experience has been the same with deer and feral hogs shot with a .44 mag handgun with 240-300 grain bullets. Velocity ranges are less than that of the muzzleloaders. Put the bullets in the vitals they fall, end of story.

                          I've shot a great deal of game animals with high velocity rounds, particularly the .25/06. I've had my share of bang flops, but I've also had animals which were calm at the shot bolt and run a hundred yards or more hit squarely through the vitals. One whitetail of note ran over 200 yards before falling. It did not leave much of a blood trail even with a Quarter sized exit hole. On recovery and field dressing the contents of the chest cavity were poured out, the heart in 5 pieces and aorta shredded...

                          Mr. Weatherby was a grand showman and promoter as some one remarked. He found his nich and he worked it very effectively, even convincing the shooting public that the silly belt around the head of the cartridge meant raw power.

                          Animals sill were and are dispatched with lesser rounds at far lesser velocities. Speed may kill if you are flying a fighter jet, but in the hunting fields it all comes down to perforating the vitals properly.
                          OK this guy is either a liar or just stupid
                          NO i repeat NO animal can run 200 yards with a non functioning heart
                          that is a fact and many of the other comments are highly doubtful as well but ill let someone try and prove an animal runs with a non functioning heart

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Beekeeper View Post
                            I love to hunt deer with muzzleloaders, particularly period correct side hammer percussion and flintlock rifles. I use real black powder in them under a patched soft lead, round ball, no "Maxi Balls". My deer hunting rifles are .50 caliber (.490 diameter 177 grain), .54 caliber (.530 diameter, 230 grain) and .58 caliber (.570 diameter, 279 grain).

                            Velocities for the three with a hunting load of black powder are 1800-1900 for the .50, 1600-1700 for the .54 and 1300-1400 for the .58. I'll despense with the foot pounds of energy because I'm convinced that foot pounds do not kill an animal.

                            Shots on game with these rifles and loads are less than 100 yards. Deer and feral swine shot with any of these rifles usually fall at impact,bang/flop as you say. Shots are confined to the heart/lung area. If they run at all it is a 10-20 yard stumble. I've only had to blood trail one animal; a small coastal whitetail hit square through the boiler room.

                            Round balls tends to flatten on impact. They make a large wound channel and if placed appropiately, create a large amount of blood loss, thus rapid blood pressure loss and unconsciousness. No "meat" is shot up in the process from hydrostatic shock.

                            My experience has been the same with deer and feral hogs shot with a .44 mag handgun with 240-300 grain bullets. Velocity ranges are less than that of the muzzleloaders. Put the bullets in the vitals they fall, end of story.

                            I've shot a great deal of game animals with high velocity rounds, particularly the .25/06. I've had my share of bang flops, but I've also had animals which were calm at the shot bolt and run a hundred yards or more hit squarely through the vitals. One whitetail of note ran over 200 yards before falling. It did not leave much of a blood trail even with a Quarter sized exit hole. On recovery and field dressing the contents of the chest cavity were poured out, the heart in 5 pieces and aorta shredded...

                            Mr. Weatherby was a grand showman and promoter as some one remarked. He found his nich and he worked it very effectively, even convincing the shooting public that the silly belt around the head of the cartridge meant raw power.

                            Animals sill were and are dispatched with lesser rounds at far lesser velocities. Speed may kill if you are flying a fighter jet, but in the hunting fields it all comes down to perforating the vitals properly.
                            OK this guy is either a liar or just stupid
                            NO i repeat NO animal can run 200 yards with a non functioning heart
                            that is a fact and many of the other comments are highly doubtful as well but ill let someone try and prove an animal runs with a non functioning heart

                            Comment

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