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  • FirstBubba
    replied
    dewman wrote:
    "... FB: Going back to the op for a sec, it doesn't seem to me that lead free or not, is going to be put to a people's vote. It's going to come via state houses or government (or governor if election year)
    mandate. ..."

    You're exactly right dewman, that's why I stated that nothing I can do here or anywhere else will remove any ban.
    ...or stop one from being put in place by some liberal ne'er-do-well.

    About all sportsmen/women can hope for is that a phone call/email/mail barrage to an elected official might turn the tide on a "ban".
    BUT....the (d)'s (liberals?) have become adept at muddying the waters until the acceptance of a ban is more acceptable than the unacceptable liberal alternative.
    Last edited by FirstBubba; 10-14-2021, 02:17 PM.

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  • dewman
    replied
    FB: Going back to the op for a sec, it doesn't seem to me that lead free or not, is going to be put to a people's vote. It's going to come via state houses or government (or governor if election year) mandate. Like steel for ducks. So I urge anyone and everyone to at least try some in at least one weapon just to gain practical knowledge, always a good thing. I'm buying an extra doe only tag ($7) to try my pistol with Winchester xp copper impacts just to see. I'll donate the meat and gain some first hand knowledge. It's 6.5 Creedmoor so I'm hoping to get a few pals to try it as well.
    Stay safe, aim small(er)🦌+πŸ‘€+⚑️Or🏹=πŸ”

    Leave a comment:


  • FirstBubba
    replied
    pighunter, a couple of pretty good articles on the other side of the fence.

    https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shoo...ous-lead-ammo/

    http://www.thesnipehunter.com/page19.html

    A couple of points I've noticed.

    1) a LOT of the "lead ban" articles are filled with "scientific" jargon*. (decagrams/liter, etc, etc....)
    2)the lead ban papers never seem to differentiate between metallic lead and "chemical" lead
    3) the anti lead ban articles appeal more to the "logical" points. (if A+B=C then why are they telling us C-B=G)

    * - is this an attempt to "seem" scientific? A "flim-flam" so to speak!
    (If you can't stun them with brilliance, baffle them with bulls#Β‘t!)

    Leave a comment:


  • FirstBubba
    replied
    Originally posted by dewman View Post
    As for lead ingested side, this is the research most often quoted/used. Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2569.PNG
Views:	80
Size:	262.7 KB
ID:	782780 If you are asking which side of the condor issue I'm on, officially it's the I don't give a sh** if they come or go.
    Well sir, I'll give you a "LOL!", but I do care if the condor goes extinct. Magnificent bird!

    ....other than that, I'm not overly concerned either....other than the "shuck and jive" the antihunters are hoisting on the hunting community.
    It just "boggles" the mind just how many, so called, educated people are buying into the myth.

    Like I told pighunter, the lead ban is merely an inconvenience to me. Not a problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • dewman
    replied
    As for lead ingested side, this is the research most often quoted/used. Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_2569.PNG
Views:	80
Size:	262.7 KB
ID:	782780 If you are asking which side of the condor issue I'm on, officially it's the I don't give a sh** if they come or go.

    Leave a comment:


  • dewman
    replied
    Originally posted by FirstBubba View Post

    It is notable that after the initial lead ban in California, there was NO appreciable decline in the "suspected" deaths by lead poisoning of the California Condor.

    '06, I suspect you are WAY more correct than most hunters want to admit, in the numbers of waterfowl that suffer and languish unrecovered annually, due to the inefficiency of steel shot.
    Alas, no studies!
    Wonder why?
    If you are referring to crippling rates for waterfowl, there are dozens of researches. Been going on since year one. Outdoorlife ran an article last month. Current consensus is between 21%-22% annually.
    Last edited by dewman; 10-13-2021, 02:34 PM.

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  • FirstBubba
    replied
    Originally posted by crm3006 View Post
    Those "space alien" windmills cluttering up the landscape in Texas, Wyoming, ruined the Arbuckles in Oklahoma, and many other states, kill a lot more avian wildlife than any amount of ingested lead. Ingested lead is really only a theory put out by anti-hunters, and since the lead ban has been in effect, what statistics do we have on an increase in the duck and goose populations?
    To "bile it right down to the grounds", as my Grandpappy would say, steel shot accounted for more wounded ducks and geese dying a slow death, or cripples, which often died a slow death, than any lead ban ever would, or could, save.
    Lead shot used to humanely and quickly kill the birds, but with the inception of steel shot, many hunters, myself included, gave up crippling birds in disgust. The lead ban is, was, and always will be nothing but a ploy to force more regulation on hunters, pushing them out of hunting and into other pursuits.
    Thinking about "space alien" windmills, I can't help but wonder, why are they so good scattered all around the country, but can't be placed in Massachusetts, because they interfered with teddy kennedy's view? Good riddance to a useless salary paid out of the Taxpayer's pockets.
    It is notable that after the initial lead ban in California, there was NO appreciable decline in the "suspected" deaths by lead poisoning of the California Condor.

    '06, I suspect you are WAY more correct than most hunters want to admit, in the numbers of waterfowl that suffer and languish unrecovered annually, due to the inefficiency of steel shot.
    Alas, no studies!
    Wonder why?
    Last edited by FirstBubba; 10-13-2021, 02:19 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • crm3006
    replied
    Those "space alien" windmills cluttering up the landscape in Texas, Wyoming, ruined the Arbuckles in Oklahoma, and many other states, kill a lot more avian wildlife than any amount of ingested lead. Ingested lead is really only a theory put out by anti-hunters, and since the lead ban has been in effect, what statistics do we have on an increase in the duck and goose populations?
    To "bile it right down to the grounds", as my Grandpappy would say, steel shot accounted for more wounded ducks and geese dying a slow death, or cripples, which often died a slow death, than any lead ban ever would, or could, save.
    Lead shot used to humanely and quickly kill the birds, but with the inception of steel shot, many hunters, myself included, gave up crippling birds in disgust. The lead ban is, was, and always will be nothing but a ploy to force more regulation on hunters, pushing them out of hunting and into other pursuits.
    Thinking about "space alien" windmills, I can't help but wonder, why are they so good scattered all around the country, but can't be placed in Massachusetts, because they interfered with teddy kennedy's view? Good riddance to a useless salary paid out of the Taxpayer's pockets.

    Leave a comment:


  • FirstBubba
    replied
    I might also add, there are MCL's (Maximum Contaminant Level) for copper, silver, brass and probably whatever other metals "monolithic" bullets contain.
    It would be interesting to know which game critter who's untimely deaths and extinction they will attribute to those metals?

    "... The solution to pollution is dilution! ..."

    Leave a comment:


  • FirstBubba
    replied
    Originally posted by PigHunter

    Yes, I don't have a problem with the lead ban. There's a possibility of contamination to people and wildlife. But, don't consider me an advocate because of that stance. Remember, you're the one pushing for an argument and I became the target just because of relating some of the items I've read about the subject.

    Some of the points you've made are outdated and not relevant. But I love you anyways

    I'll still find a way to kill critters if a ban is enacted in my state. It will suck because I have so much ammo with lead bullets but it won't be the end of my outdoors fun. Yes, I very much enjoy seeing eagles, hawks, and owls. If they are in danger then let's do something about it. I really don't care if a bear, coyote, opossum, fox, etc. dies from eating a contaminated gut pile. Makes little to no difference to me if an old fart dies from it either. But I would never want a child to suffer from contaminated meat.
    My apologies if you feel I was "targeting" you.
    NOT my intention. πŸ™‚

    http://www.huntfortruth.org/myths/

    Here is a link that (where have we heard this before?) "debunks" the myths of the lead ban.
    There are probably just as many "pro lead" studies and articles out there as there are "anti lead". It's just which ones you chose to believe....or dismiss.

    I honestly think, pighunter, that the "lead ban" was (is?) an anti-hunter ploy.
    The "pistol ammo" registry of the late 70's was led in with, "We might not get the guns, but we can get the ammunition!"

    Nor would I want to subject a human of any age to suffer poisoning from ingesting lead fragments.
    I just don't believe that bullet fragments or shotgun pellets are capable of causing lead poisoning.

    ....and I love you too! πŸ˜‰

    EDIT:

    "... Yes, I don't have a problem with the lead ban. ..."

    The "lead ban" isn't a problem for me either, merely an inconvenience.
    Last edited by FirstBubba; 10-13-2021, 01:17 PM.

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  • FirstBubba
    replied
    Q: I have heard that some groups claim that eagles are getting the lead from sources other than bullets. Is this true?
    A: There is a lot of published misinformation on this issue. One writer for the National Shooting Sports Foundation implied that condors, vultures, and eagles were getting lead poisoning from sources like discarded car batteries! While people and animals may have some exposure to lead from contaminated water, paint, or other similar sources, the levels of lead being detected in eagles and other scavengers are far too high to be associated with trace amounts of lead in the environment. Multiple studies comparing isotopic compositions of lead found in the bloodstream of Bald Eagles and other scavengers with the lead used in ammunition have confirmed that lead from spent ammunition is the source of this toxicity.

    While we’ve never found pieces of a car battery on raptor radiographs, our veterinary team has found many instances of tiny lead fragments in the gastrointestinal tracts of poisoned birds.
    _______________________________

    From your posts, I presume you consider the "lead ban" is appropriate and lead particles are the leading cause of deaths in avian wildlife?

    Leave a comment:


  • FirstBubba
    replied
    Read all the articles except the first link. It was a PDF download. Just don't like messing with them.

    Uhh.... the one thing I did notice was that none if the articles mention the difference between "metallic" lead and "chemical" lead.

    The second article actually does mention the fact that lead fragments pass through the digestive system with little to no effect. The last two articles would have you believe one microfragment and you're toast, and one venison meal can wipe out an entire family posthaste, without warning! 🀯!

    One of the articles (the second article, I think?) mentions that man has been eating game killed with lead ammo for the last 500 years without any historically significant lead poisoning events! πŸ™‚!

    Also, one article stated that THE leading cause of condor fatalities is lead fragments in gut piles! πŸ˜– No other vultures, raptors or scavengers mentioned.
    Not turkey vultures.
    Not crows.
    Not magpies.
    Not ravens.
    Not coyotes, bears, eagles, skunks...
    ONLY California Condors! πŸ€”

    ....and yet, not one soul will answer the question, "Why are only California Condors affected by lead bullet fragments in gut piles and not other birds too?"

    Another good post, pighunter. Thanks.

    Leave a comment:


  • labrador12
    replied
    Actually it was a wet year this year on the panhandle. Got a few dogs early, the pinks were tastey and not overpoweringly thick, and I brought back 50 cans of smoked silvers. I should have fished harder I would have caught more. This old age thing makes near death experiences easier to imagine. Activities that seemed not particularly difficult five years ago, now seem quite tricky. My wading skills were excellent. I question the act of tiptoe wading as a geezer. My back cramps up, and sitting down without waders invites a wet ass, which stays with you. I still enjoy the adventure and expect to head up again next year.

    Leave a comment:


  • Danbo
    replied
    Originally posted by labrador12 View Post
    I don't duck hunt in Pa. I'm old and have COPD, I don't know the country like I did in NY, I'm spoiled, having had my own marsh in NY as well as belonging to a private club in Oswego County for over 40 years. I am on a deer lease with my wife, but not being able to walk 20 yds without stopping really cuts down on my preferred hunting methods. When I sit after about an hour I'm so stiff I can't swing on a duck. I haven't shot a deer in Pa but that's because of their regulations. If I was hunting by NY and my farms rules I'd have a couple. So far I've not seen any 6 pts or bigger to shoot and the does I've seen have not been during the legal doe period. I still make it to Alaska and flyfish for silvers so I'm not totally shot.
    I'm glad your still getting out deer hunting.
    How was the fishing in Alaska? I'm surprised global warming hasn't dried up all the rivers.



    Leave a comment:


  • labrador12
    replied
    I don't duck hunt in Pa. I'm old and have COPD, I don't know the country like I did in NY, I'm spoiled, having had my own marsh in NY as well as belonging to a private club in Oswego County for over 40 years. I am on a deer lease with my wife, but not being able to walk 20 yds without stopping really cuts down on my preferred hunting methods. When I sit after about an hour I'm so stiff I can't swing on a duck. I haven't shot a deer in Pa but that's because of their regulations. If I was hunting by NY and my farms rules I'd have a couple. So far I've not seen any 6 pts or bigger to shoot and the does I've seen have not been during the legal doe period. I still make it to Alaska and flyfish for silvers so I'm not totally shot.

    Leave a comment:

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