Where do you stand now?

[FirstBubba]

We have all discussed this in the past, but it's been awhile.

The "LEAD BAN"

Pros?
Cons?
For it?
Against it?

[dewman]

The 4 boxes I bought for my 6.5 Creedmoor pistol are all lead free. Plan to use it as a comparison. Will take awhile before I can come to any conclusions I'll stand behind.

[FirstBubba]

I see the reason for it with hunting ammo. Don't want to give it up for self defense

What reason is that?

[fitch270]

I don’t know why but the proposed legislation in NY stalled out. I expect it will be revised somewhat and go through at some point in the near future. I now have mono bullet components for all three deer chamberings in our lineup.

I’m less concerned with having to use lead free ammo for big game than I am for small game. For the sake of raptors eating out of gut piles I don’t see it being an issue outside of deer carcasses. I’m hoping that’s what gets changed.

Thing is monos don’t cost any more than other premium ammo that I usually use. As long as it’s readily available and not marked up I can deal with it. I do think there should be an exception for those who use straight hardcast loads. They tend to exit and aren’t nearly as replaceable or usable in some older cartridges.


Side note, sort of related.

We were at the range this afternoon to shoot our weekly match when a member showed up with another local guy I know and his two kids. They’re interested in joining our league. The younger boy isn’t old enough to participate yet but his older sister is 14 and is getting into this stuff. She took her Hunter Ed course last year when it was totally online. The Dad tells us she shot a doe this morning using a .223, perfect heart shot, pics on his phone. The other club guy asks him what kind of ammo, he doesn’t know so he goes out to his truck and gets the box. It’s Wolf FMJ😱

We explain to him that’s not legal for hunting and why, he nods and gives us the oh, okay, yup routine. I’m hoping he gets it and doesn’t think we’re just being idiots.

[FirstBubba]

I don’t know why but the proposed legislation in NY stalled out. I expect it will be revised somewhat and go through at some point in the near future. I now have mono bullet components for all three deer chamberings in our lineup.

I’m less concerned with having to use lead free ammo for big game than I am for small game. For the sake of raptors eating out of gut piles I don’t see it being an issue outside of deer carcasses. I’m hoping that’s what gets changed.

Thing is monos don’t cost any more than other premium ammo that I usually use. As long as it’s readily available and not marked up I can deal with it. I do think there should be an exception for those who use straight hardcast loads. They tend to exit and aren’t nearly as replaceable or usable in some older cartridges.


Side note, sort of related.

We were at the range this afternoon to shoot our weekly match when a member showed up with another local guy I know and his two kids. They’re interested in joining our league. The younger boy isn’t old enough to participate yet but his older sister is 14 and is getting into this stuff. She took her Hunter Ed course last year when it was totally online. The Dad tells us she shot a doe this morning using a .223, perfect heart shot, pics on his phone. The other club guy asks him what kind of ammo, he doesn’t know so he goes out to his truck and gets the box. It’s Wolf FMJ😱

We explain to him that’s not legal for hunting and why, he nods and gives us the oh, okay, yup routine. I’m hoping he gets it and doesn’t think we’re just being idiots.

I was standing in Mitch's gun shop one morning when a guy comes in and asks Mitch to look his rifle over.
It was a nicely sporterized but 03A3 Springfield in .30-06.
"Looks good to me," Mitch said. "Why?"
Guy gets all excited and tells us he killed his deer but "...set the whole damned woods on fire! ..."
Mitch sent him to his vehicle to get his ammo.
When he came back in, he handed Mitch five military surplus .30-06 tracer rounds!
He bought 8 at a garage sale for fifty cents and thought he'd hunt with them!

Stand around in a gun shop for a while. It will blow your mind what people will do! 🤯

As with everyone else, the monolithic bullet "thang" don't concern me a lot even though I still prefer "cup 'n core" bullets.
Sorry, OFS! LOL!

My question is more directed to the "lead shot" ban and waterfowl.
I know, I know, but I think we can have a discussion without coming to blows.

Let's go back to pighunter post #7 and items 1 and 3.

Lead comes on two forms;
1) metallic - bullets, stinkers, shot
2) chemical - paint, gasoline, etc.

The "metallic" form is indigestible by animals or birds.
The "chemical" form, however, is an accumulated toxin that can easily be ingested and is some nasty, nasty stuff! There IS something to the old "paint chip" legend! NOT funny.

The biggest concern with lead shot is California's condors and waterfowl.

"Waterfowl ingest lead shot in heavily hunted marsh areas!"
Well, first, stomach acids aren't strong enough to dissolve "metallic" lead and convert it to the "chemical" lead that is toxic.
Second, lead shot does not stay in a goose or duck's craw (craw? crop?)!

vultures (condors)
They* say that lead bullet fragments in gut piles is THE leading cause of condor deaths in California.
pighunter, how many hunters leave gut piles in the woods during an Alabama deer season?
A bunch I bet!
There are thousands of gut piles in Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, ALL across the south!
Am I right?

How many turkey vultures, crows, coyotes and other scavengers do you see lying about that died of ingesting lead fragments from gut piles?

Why is only the California condor affected by "lead fragments from gut piles"?
How many people in the hunting community have you heard of that suffer from lead poisoning from eating lead fragments?

As a kid, my dad gave me a Benjamin .22 pellet rifle.
Many, MANY times, I took off hunting with a mouthful of .22 lead pellets. I'm 71 and at this point show no ill effects.

Just some thoughts.

[crm3006]

Lead bans do nothing to protect wildlife, as ducks, geese and other birds do not habitually ingest smooth, round, lead shot into their craws. Birds want rough, edged gravel, so that the muscle action of the craw will break down their feed, and aid in digestion.
Most, if not all of the ingestion of gravel by ducks and geese is done on gravel bars, not by diving into the bottom of a lake or bayou, which is the major shot fall area.
Not about lead poisoning, at all, just another scam to control the hunting population, and drive a great many goose and duck hunters away from the sport. If it actually were about lead poisoning, lead shot would be banned for all bird hunting.

[fitch270]

From what I understand it’s the gizzard action that causes the problem. When waterfowl pick grit is when they ingest the shot which then gets ground into a slurry with their food. I’ve never seen a time frame for how long it takes on average but would think it’s accumulative rather than something that happens quickly.

[FirstBubba]

Lead bans do nothing to protect wildlife, as ducks, geese and other birds do not habitually ingest smooth, round, lead shot into their craws. Birds want rough, edged gravel, so that the muscle action of the craw will break down their feed, and aid in digestion.
Most, if not all of the ingestion of gravel by ducks and geese is done on gravel bars, not by diving into the bottom of a lake or bayou, which is the major shot fall area.
Not about lead poisoning, at all, just another scam to control the hunting population, and drive a great many goose and duck hunters away from the sport. If it actually were about lead poisoning, lead shot would be banned for all bird hunting.

The ironic part of what you write.
If you hunt snipe along a lake shore, lead shot is legal.
If you hunt dove along a lake shore, lead is legal.
If you set up at the edge of a lake to throw targets and practice, lead is legal!
Lead is illegal ONLY if you're hunting "migratory" waterfowl!
Dove are migratory, nontoxic shot not required.
Woodcock are migratory, nontoxic shot not required.

Everybody thinks that gravel in a birds craw stays there.
No, grit goes through a bird. Grit is constantly passing through a birds digestive system. Lead shot also, would pass through a birds craw.

[FirstBubba]

From what I understand it’s the gizzard action that causes the problem. When waterfowl pick grit is when they ingest the shot which then gets ground into a slurry with their food. I’ve never seen a time frame for how long it takes on average but would think it’s accumulative rather than something that happens quickly.

A lot of people have those concerns, but it's basically inaccurate.
Can birds ingest lead shot?
Yes.
BUT....as strong as the muscle is in a birds craw, it isn't capable of grinding up lead pellets or bullet (vultures) fragments. Even IF the craw could "grind" lead, digestive juices aren't strong enough to dissolve the lead into the chemical form to be absorbed into their blood stream.

I've read studies that claimed an adult mallard needed to ingest only three to five #6 lead pellets to be fatal. "C'mon, man!"

[fitch270]

It’s not the muscle itself, it’s the grit mixed in that acts like sandpaper grinding at the pellets the same way it breaks down whatever the bird has eaten.

Again, not something that happens quickly. Just a gradual build up in the birds system.

[FirstBubba]

Metallic lead is very low risk.

Lead compounds are fairly poisonous: they slowly build up in the body and cause many harmful effects. But lead metal is very inert and you would need to do something fairly risky with it to create much likleihood of generating dangerous lead compounds.

[Milldawg]

Don’t think it matters. It’s just another nanny state issue. Everything is bad for you if your living it shortens you life span. We are all living to die. Alcohol kills more people than anything else so why not ban it. I already don’t hunt much now as it is due to lack of access just keep making more reasons for people not to hunt. And soon there will no hunting.

[FirstBubba]

Read it or not, I really don't care. But this article seems to cover most of the topic:

Lead Ammunition Poses Real Risks. Why Won't Gun Owners Switch? (undark.org)

"A study of processed and packaged white-tailed deer meat that was harvested with lead shot found that 34 percent contained metal fragments — some having as many as 168 separate pieces. Further analysis showed the metal to be 93 percent lead and 7 percent copper. Visual: National Park Service"

I've read several of those articles/studies. They all seem to agree.
I've also read about the same number of papers that disagree.

I have to go back to, what I think, is a common sense approach.
As I've already stated, of all the gut piles left lying on the ground all across the southern United States with all their lead/copper fragments, ONLY seem to affect the California Condor.
The turkey vultures, crows, ravens, magpies, coyotes, pumas, skunks, possums and raccoons don't seem to have a problem with lead fragments in gut piles OR wounded and lost deer.

Why only the California Condor?

pighunter, it's like the COVID vaccine. If you're ok with nontoxic shot, fine. Use nontoxic shot.
But I'm not convinced that lead shot is toxic.
Even if a bird or any other game, is carrying nonfatal pellets.

BTW! pighunter, great post! Thanks!

[FirstBubba]

Don’t think it matters. It’s just another nanny state issue. Everything is bad for you if your living it shortens you life span. We are all living to die. Alcohol kills more people than anything else so why not ban it. I already don’t hunt much now as it is due to lack of access just keep making more reasons for people not to hunt. And soon there will no hunting.

Yes sir, 'dawg! Just another ploy to curtail hunting.

[FirstBubba]

pighunter, if I could find "conclusive" proof that lead shot/fragments were toxic (other than as a projectile! 😉) to wildlife, NOT just California Condors, I'd be among the first to jump on board the "nontoxic train".
There are just TOO many contradictions to be conclusive.

REALITY!
I have no misconceptions that the "lead ban" will ever be reversed by anything I can say or do, here or anywhere else.
This is another one of those "precedent" things liberals use to make their own rules.

Necropsies on dead condor chicks show that parents feed their chicks all sorts of garbage. Bits of copper wire, glass, rubber, etc, etc....
What "condor" researchers WON'T tell you is that condors "also" feed in garbage dumps. Both private and municipal. We all know there is no telling what they can pick up to ingest as food and to feed their chicks.