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  • #31
    Springerman: Again, the subject of the sentence was targets, not the gun. Anyway, read the sentence! How is one going to "sight" down the barrel/rib before the gun is "mounted"? That doesn't make sense. My mantra emphasises first getting eyes on target ("sighting") and keeping them there as gun is "mounted," THEN "floated" to intercept flight path ("maintain lead), and fired ALL IN ONE FLUID SMOOTH MOTION. This business about "moving" is ambiguous for starters. If it is about feet, just how important is that in the field when sitting on your arse in a layout blind or trying to maintain balance while climbing a steep hill or ravine? A nice thing to maybe talk about when standing flatfooted on a pad at the range but there are more important things to emphasise that are applicable to both the range and field ... like maintaining sight of the target while getting the gun up and in line to shoot.

    I see. You conclude I don't shoot for fun because I shoot 5K rounds a year. But I'm not the one who shoots competitions or pays the fees and takes the classes to be a certified instructor. Those seem to me better indicators of someone who is taking shooting more "serious" than "fun". I shoot a lot because I enjoy shooting moving targets. Yeah, I've picked up a couple (but just a couple) of patches along the way. They're in my sock drawer ... I think. I also enjoy the guys I shoot with. Our "meetings" at the riverside pub afterwards are always the high point of my week. And my dogs' week too. They get to go swimming.
    Last edited by Ontario Honker Hunter; 05-18-2020, 01:46 PM.

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    • #32
      So I described in fairly concise detail how to understand the basics of the move mount shoot technique yet "somehow" you "missed" all that...... Why am I not surprised !
      As well I gave reasons that I go shoot other places ( meet new folks, camaraderie) but you seem to have "missed" reading that ...... These are usually fund raising shoots for a worthy cause. There can be a few
      folks that take it more serious than most attending.....good for them.
      I have seen many times in the last 5 years you posting about your scores at trap, skeet & your local ( world class tough ) sporting clays range......
      You share this because ?
      Still harping on the mount first then swing for lead.......the longer the gun is in the shoulder the distinctly higher chance the shooter will measure the distance for lead. Look at bead, guns slows or stops. Hit bird in the butt ( your MO ) or miss behind. Yeah !!!

      OK laughing again...... Must stop 😀

      Comment


      • #33
        Don't argue with a Moron OH, Rident stolidi verba Latina.

        It wouldn't be hard to believe Dave Dunning and Justin Krueger knew a certain someone personally when they performed their most famous study.

        By the way, I think I've mentioned it before but did your club ever look into getting / renting a Helice / ZZ setup? I keep hoping the price has gone down to get more people involved. Might be one of those things where if I want done, I'll have to do it myself. Anyway, it's a different and faced paced game, you'd probably like it. I like Helice and Sporting Clays more than skeet and trap but they're all fun.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Buckshott00 View Post
          ...

          By the way, I think I've mentioned it before but did your club ever look into getting / renting a Helice / ZZ setup? I keep hoping the price has gone down to get more people involved. Might be one of those things where if I want done, I'll have to do it myself. Anyway, it's a different and faced paced game, you'd probably like it. I like Helice and Sporting Clays more than skeet and trap but they're all fun.
          Yeah, playing those silly word games was somewhat entertaining but really no contest.

          A couple of the younger guys who shoot very well have shot Helice and been talking it up. They somehow got the go ahead to build five stand stations two winters ago. We set it up on one skeet course and use its two houses and four machines from sporting clays (that course gets snowed in). Anyway the old boys on the board griped about the expense but I pointed out five stand clearly had to be making the club more money during the winter. Usually they only kept the one skeet course clean and often eight guys shooting at once with a few waiting. And as you know it takes a long time for even four or five guys to shoot a round of skeet. But over at five stand five guys can finish a round lickety split. When there's only two hours of daylight to shoot, expedience is important! And they still keep the other skeet course open and available if five stand is tied up. So sure, it was pretty much the same guys who always shot skeet were just shooting something else. But now they were shooting a lot more, and when the club charges by the round that means more $$$. Anyway, we were able to demonstrate that something new can be beneficial. Something new is always a VERY tough sell to the old trap shooters who dominate the executive.

          We have two extra trap houses that might be converted to something like Helice. I'll check into it. But of course this lockdown has really hurt things. Our club has a ton of money in the bank and should hang in there. However we still will have to buy targets for this year (or next year?) and that usually kills most of the savings.
          Last edited by Ontario Honker Hunter; 05-19-2020, 10:46 AM.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by springerman3 View Post
            So I described in fairly concise detail how to understand the basics of the move mount shoot technique yet "somehow" you "missed" all that...... Why am I not surprised !
            What exactly is it that I have missed? "Move" yourself to proper stance, "mount" the gun, "shoot" the target. Isn't that what you're saying?
            I have seen many times in the last 5 years you posting about your scores at trap, skeet & your local ( world class tough ) sporting clays range......
            You share this because ?
            I share some scores that demonstrate things that have effected improvement or deterioration, e.g. lengthening LOP, staying with same field gun for all venues, shooting low gun, caffiene intake, lighting, etc. I sent Phil a copy of our clays course. Ask him his opinion on how tough it is.
            Still harping on the mount first then swing for lead.......the longer the gun is in the shoulder the distinctly higher chance the shooter will measure the distance for lead. Look at bead, guns slows or stops. Hit bird in the butt ( your MO ) or miss behind. Yeah !!!
            What are you talking about? "Mount" is NOT first. "Sighting" the target is first ... and clearly the most important. As long as eyes remain on target they will not be on bead, rib, or barrel. Again, I do NOT emphasise "steps" in the shooting process. There are components but they are all part of one fluid movement from seeing the target right through to pulling the trigger. That's what I emphasise which is why it's in caps! I agree that the longer the gun is shouldered, the more opportunity for screwing up the shot. It's why I started shooting 25-30% better skeet and clays scores when I went low gun. I saw the target quicker and clearer and shot quicker after the gun was mounted. Everything was done in one fluid motion ... because it had to be to get the shot off. Most guys who insist on shooting high gun do it because they fear being rushed. But if you know where the target is coming from, when it will be coming, and where it will be going, there is plenty of time for a shot. It is much harder to get on the target high gun. Either the shooter has to look away from the gun to sight the target (e.g. high house station two for right-handed shooter) or the gun obscures clear view (e.g. low house station six RH shooter). In the first example, the shooter often also lifts cheek away from the gun and never gets back on it properly. In the second example there is increased likelihood of aiming. Also, from high gun the shooter likely has to adjust up and down while trying to stay ahead of the target when intercepting it. From low gun he should be floating into the correct angle and speed to intercept trajectory by the time gun is shouldered. Again, all one fluid motion. Shooting high gun involves too much extra movement: eyes (and possibly head) to find the target, and muzzle to readjust for trajectory. Shooting low gun also involves movement, but it should be movement that gets the shooter on target more smoothly and with a greater potential for a sustained proper mount ... IF THE GUN FITS THE SHOOTER.

            My hat's off to you for only shooting grouse and pheasants going away in the head and never the butt. Truly extraordinary. You're perhaps the only bird hunter in the world who can make such a claim. And undoubtedly the only one who believes it.
            Last edited by Ontario Honker Hunter; 05-19-2020, 03:54 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Let me know how it goes. Some guys never really like Helice, I think it's cause the targets don't "dust" the same way they do with clays.

              It's for sure an expensive game, but I think it's great for upland bird practice.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Buckshott00 View Post
                Let me know how it goes. Some guys never really like Helice, I think it's cause the targets don't "dust" the same way they do with clays.

                It's for sure an expensive game, but I think it's great for upland bird practice.
                I don't think we could make Helice work on our course. The downrange area is rough brushy wet stuff. It would be difficult to retreive the targets.

                I have experimented with modifying clay targets to see if flight patterns can be deviated. Cutting notches weakened them so much they usually didn't survive launching. A short fin attached to one side of the top might produce interesting results but it would only work for manual throwers (we still use three on our clays course). Couldn't stack altered targets in an auto thrower. Hmmm. Perhaps cutting notches in asparin (mini) targets might work. Their smaller size might make them less inclined to break on launching. Or firmer rabbit targets.

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                • #38
                  Might I suggest a Dave Carrie Shooting video?

                  He does an instructional one iirc for " high pheasants ".


                  Hell I enjoy his hunting videos.....dude is pretty good, plus they are excellent video. Relaxing, cool places....the old boy smoking birds left n right.

                  Lemme see if I can find one. Am on phone at work, so kinda sucks ( break time )

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                  • #39
                    https://youtu.be/T1omGYhyivE

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by CD2 View Post
                      Might I suggest a Dave Carrie Shooting video?

                      He does an instructional one iirc for " high pheasants ".


                      Hell I enjoy his hunting videos.....dude is pretty good, plus they are excellent video. Relaxing, cool places....the old boy smoking birds left n right.

                      Lemme see if I can find one. Am on phone at work, so kinda sucks ( break time )
                      That might be useful for a British estate pheasant "shoot" where beaters drive the birds over a line of shooters standing on a mowed lawn in the open (Brits make no claim to that being "hunting"). But not in America. I don't think I've had a fifty yard overhead shot at a pheasant in my life. And I have shot a lot of them. Very rare to get an overhead shot of any sort. He talks about "killing birds" which is obviously British for breaking clay targets. I would NEVER risk wounding a pheasant with an eighty yard shot. I'm sure I've never attempted it even on a bird I already hit.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Buckshott00 View Post
                        Don't argue with a Moron OH, Rident stolidi verba Latina.

                        It wouldn't be hard to believe Dave Dunning and Justin Krueger knew a certain someone personally when they performed their most famous study.

                        By the way, I think I've mentioned it before but did your club ever look into getting / renting a Helice / ZZ setup? I keep hoping the price has gone down to get more people involved. Might be one of those things where if I want done, I'll have to do it myself. Anyway, it's a different and faced paced game, you'd probably like it. I like Helice and Sporting Clays more than skeet and trap but they're all fun.
                        Well Golly Gee Wilikers !
                        Look who decided to drop in with some darn tooting perspective !!
                        Cool, a Latin phrase !
                        My thoughts are running wild with what he really wanted to say.
                        I guess I should just be honored that he took the time to bang away on his key board.....
                        But I am not​​​ 😏
                        Better luck next time there 00.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Ontario Honker Hunter View Post
                          What are you talking about? "Mount" is NOT first. "Sighting" the target is first ... and clearly the most important. As long as eyes remain on target they will not be on bead, rib, or barrel. Again, I do NOT emphasise "steps" in the shooting process. There are components but they are all part of one fluid movement from seeing the target right through to pulling the trigger. That's what I emphasise which is why it's in caps! I agree that the longer the gun is shouldered, the more opportunity for screwing up the shot. It's why I started shooting 25-30% better skeet and clays scores when I went low gun. I saw the target quicker and clearer and shot quicker after the gun was mounted. Everything was done in one fluid motion ... because it had to be to get the shot off. Most guys who insist on shooting high gun do it because they fear being rushed. But if you know where the target is coming from, when it will be coming, and where it will be going, there is plenty of time for a shot. It is much harder to get on the target high gun. Either the shooter has to look away from the gun to sight the target (e.g. high house station two for right-handed shooter) or the gun obscures clear view (e.g. low house station six RH shooter). In the first example, the shooter often also lifts cheek away from the gun and never gets back on it properly. In the second example there is increased likelihood of aiming. Also, from high gun the shooter likely has to adjust up and down while trying to stay ahead of the target when intercepting it. From low gun he should be floating into the correct angle and speed to intercept trajectory by the time gun is shouldered. Again, all one fluid motion. Shooting high gun involves too much extra movement: eyes (and possibly head) to find the target, and muzzle to readjust for trajectory. Shooting low gun also involves movement, but it should be movement that gets the shooter on target more smoothly and with a greater potential for a sustained proper mount ... IF THE GUN FITS THE SHOOTER.

                          My hat's off to you for only shooting grouse and pheasants going away in the head and never the butt. Truly extraordinary. You're perhaps the only bird hunter in the world who can make such a claim. And undoubtedly the only one who believes it.
                          So why don't you go back to post # 30 and tell me in my explanation of the move where you got the idea about moving feet ?
                          You keep talking about sighting, mounting and floating to intercept flight path.
                          Got news for you, mounting first then this floating thing is called " trying to establish lead with the gun in the shoulder".....
                          Two things are moving at once, the target and the gun in the shoulder trying to create lead (forward allowance). Haven't met a coach/instructor yet that says that is a winning perspective.
                          Also you keep harping that your shooting style is "instinctive", nothing could be farther from the truth.
                          Move, mount & shoot was developed specifically for wing shooting in the field, using ones instincts !
                          Proven technique for decades, where have you been ?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by springerman3 View Post

                            So why don't you go back to post # 30 and tell me in my explanation of the move where you got the idea about moving feet ?
                            You keep talking about sighting, mounting and floating to intercept flight path.
                            Got news for you, mounting first then this floating thing is called " trying to establish lead with the gun in the shoulder".....
                            Two things are moving at once, the target and the gun in the shoulder trying to create lead (forward allowance). Haven't met a coach/instructor yet that says that is a winning perspective.
                            Also you keep harping that your shooting style is "instinctive", nothing could be farther from the truth.
                            Move, mount & shoot was developed specifically for wing shooting in the field, using ones instincts !
                            Proven technique for decades, where have you been ?
                            Again, "move" what? First it was your feet/body and now it's not? I have emphasized all in one continuous movement from sighting, to mounting, to shooting, starting from low gun. How does that translate into shouldering the gun and moving the gun to hunt for lead? That's essentially high gun shooting, something that I have CLEARLY and REPEATEDLY pointed out is not good for field hunting or, in my case, target shooting. My method emphasizes "sighting" first and foremost because it is absolutely imperative that the shooter start out with his eyes on the target and KEEPS THEM ON TARGET through to the end of the process. Shooters who try to figure out their lead after the gun is mounted are prone to looking at their gun ... and missing the target. Instinctive shooting means no calculating and no worrying about a whole bunch of steps that are ultimately a distraction. It's called "overthinking the shot." Talk to Phil about that.

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