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  • #16
    Originally posted by Ontario Honker Hunter View Post
    I should probably add that the key to low gun at skeet or clays is to not get in a hurry. One tends to rush the shot thinking there's less time to get on target when shooting low gun. But if the the gun fits properly and the shooter practices mounting, he should have plenty of time to get on target and shoot.* Keep in mind that for both venues the shooter also has the advantage of knowing where the target is coming from and roughly what flight trajectory it will follow. However, even our station three clays with an old retired trap machine throwing unpredictable oscillating crossers and quartering targets shoots better for me low gun.

    Again, I emphasise that proper fit is paramount. A few weeks ago we were shooting clays between bursts of rain and thunder. I made the mistake of grabbing my Cabelas goretex Brushbuster wading jacket as I rushed out the door (usually shoot in the rain with my old Park Service rain jacket). Cabelas jackets have a dopey patented "system" of extra fabric in the shoulders and armpits (and everywhere else too it seems) which supposedly improves manoeuvrability when swinging on birds. In reality the effect is exactly the opposite! I frequently get tangled up in all that loose material when trying to mount the gun. It was a real handicap shooting low gun clays that day and I finally had to take the jacket off.** Even this past week when wearing only the better fitting camo Redhead spandex shirt I reviewed a while back, my gun got caught in fabric when mounting for a report pair on the oscillating station. I somehow managed to break the first target shooting off the shoulder while in the process of getting untangled, but I couldn't get properly situated for following clay and missed it. I'll blame that on the Limbsaver slip-on recoil pad. It's super-soft rubber is too "sticky" and has a tendency to grab clothing when mounting the gun (sidewalls are also too soft to keep the thing in place so I have to use duct tape - see attached image). Our local gun shop finally stocked more Pachmeyer Decelerator slip-ons this week and I bought one yesterday (lost mine pheasant hunting last fall). Decelerator is still fairly soft but not as squirrely as Limbsaver and they have a smooth hard rubber heel at the top that doesn't catch on fabric (but be careful setting a Decelerator equipped gun upright on hard surface like a kitchen floor as it's slippery heel has no grip and gun will fall over).

    * I place a piece of bright tape on crown moulding where living room wall meets the ceiling and often in the evenings I'll practice mounting and swinging to it. Best to do this with drapes pulled if you live in the city!

    ** That coat is also a handicap when shooting high gun trap as the extra long collar gets in the way of seating the butt properly in my shoulder or to my cheek. A real POS!
    Yes, you should add that the key is not to hurry the mount when shooting low gun. The goal in practicing a mount ( I see you are still mounting then moving the gun ) is to become efficient in the mount which will lead to it becoming fast ( or appearing so ).
    Using the move, mount, shoot method allows a better focus on the target ( and matching the speed of the target ).
    Mounting the gun first and chasing the target leads to many bad habits for most folks.
    I think your friend George might be better at coaching than you think, my guess is he is fairly adept at listening to folks and giving info based on what they tell him.
    A lot of the time all a coach has to do is watch the muzzle of the gun to determine what the shooter is doing ( right or wrong ).
    While the gun fit issue is important it is a bit over rated.
    ​​​​​​Kind of the reason the shotgun throws a pattern which negates the need to be precise. Being close ( in the vicinity ) will work fine for wing shooting, clay or feathered.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by 99explorer View Post
      Here is one of the benefits of Limbsaver non-slip butt plates:
      Yes, I'm really looking forward to my encounter with the illustrious South African Police when I get to the Johannesburg Airport. Already dealing with the corruption and I don't leave till next month.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by springerman3 View Post

        Yes, you should add that the key is not to hurry the mount when shooting low gun. The goal in practicing a mount ( I see you are still mounting then moving the gun ) is to become efficient in the mount which will lead to it becoming fast ( or appearing so ).
        Using the move, mount, shoot method allows a better focus on the target ( and matching the speed of the target ).
        Mounting the gun first and chasing the target leads to many bad habits for most folks.
        I think your friend George might be better at coaching than you think, my guess is he is fairly adept at listening to folks and giving info based on what they tell him.
        A lot of the time all a coach has to do is watch the muzzle of the gun to determine what the shooter is doing ( right or wrong ).
        While the gun fit issue is important it is a bit over rated.
        ​​​​​​Kind of the reason the shotgun throws a pattern which negates the need to be precise. Being close ( in the vicinity ) will work fine for wing shooting, clay or feathered.
        You see nothing. Of course I move the gun to the target while mounting it. I have been field hunting for more than fifty years. Moving before mounting comes naturally by now. This is one reason why shooting trap or skeet/clays high gun is actually detrimental for field hunting. With the possible exception of #3 trap, the gun and shooter are already pointed somewhere else and have to realign with the target when it's thrown. That takes time and opens up more opportunities for getting off track (swinging by the target laterally or horizontally as shooter tries to correct the direction of his gun to target). Moving from low gun to the target as the gun is mounted is more of a smooth symmetrical movement. The gun should float in one motion/direction from port arms to intercepting the target. Note that I am NO fan of follow-through method of shooting, not at the range anyway.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Ontario Honker Hunter View Post


          1) Know your dog. Spend time with him/her in the home and on the training grounds. My dogs go EVERYWHERE with me whether it's road trips or walking to the grocery store. Handler and dog must be of the same mind when they get to the field in the fall.

          Hmmm, that's a major difference between us. I don't want a dog, much less do I want to take one EVERYWHERE with me. I'd rather not hunt if I had to get that close with a dog. There's no dog hair in my house or vehicles nor on my clothes.
          Trump 2020 - Keep America Great!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by PigHunter View Post

            Hmmm, that's a major difference between us. I don't want a dog, much less do I want to take one EVERYWHERE with me. I'd rather not hunt if I had to get that close with a dog. There's no dog hair in my house or vehicles nor on my clothes.
            And no dog to greet you when you come home, or try to cheer you when you're feeling bad, or lay with its head on your lap just for the heck of it. Dogs are better humans than people will ever be. They love unconditionally and they are truthful to a fault. Yeah sure, there's dog hair in my house and my car. Never get something for nothing and a little hair is a small price to pay for what my dogs give to me. Very sad that you can't be bothered with being loved. Watching them work is one of the greatest joys in my life. I love seeing them do what they love. All about love. Vehicles don't show any love. They're just stuff ... something to show off. I think I have the right priorities.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Ontario Honker Hunter View Post

              You see nothing. Of course I move the gun to the target while mounting it. I have been field hunting for more than fifty years. Moving before mounting comes naturally by now. This is one reason why shooting trap or skeet/clays high gun is actually detrimental for field hunting. With the possible exception of #3 trap, the gun and shooter are already pointed somewhere else and have to realign with the target when it's thrown. That takes time and opens up more opportunities for getting off track (swinging by the target laterally or horizontally as shooter tries to correct the direction of his gun to target). Moving from low gun to the target as the gun is mounted is more of a smooth symmetrical movement. The gun should float in one motion/direction from port arms to intercepting the target. Note that I am NO fan of follow-through method of shooting, not at the range anyway.
              Your description of practicing at night was "mounting and swinging" to it.
              No where in the sentence would anyone with reasonable shotgun shooting knowledge think you are using the move, mount, shoot technique plus using a stationary object to practice that method.
              As well with your stories of fabulous retrieves of birds that were butt shot would clearly indicate that you are not using that method or ( most likely ) not correctly....
              Maybe have George spend some time with you on the range would be a good thing to do 😏

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by springerman3 View Post

                Your description of practicing at night was "mounting and swinging" to it.
                No where in the sentence would anyone with reasonable shotgun shooting knowledge think you are using the move, mount, shoot technique plus using a stationary object to practice that method.
                As well with your stories of fabulous retrieves of birds that were butt shot would clearly indicate that you are not using that method or ( most likely ) not correctly....
                Maybe have George spend some time with you on the range would be a good thing to do 😏
                Obviously practising at a stationary target on the ceiling is not the same as shooting at a pulled target on the range. The target is not moving. The objective of the in home practice is 1) to ensure I naturally close left eye as the gun comes up (my left eye is screwed up - shooting with both eyes open puts the pattern high and to the right) and 2) to practice ensuring the gun is naturally positioned in proper mount.

                George certainly does not shoot better than me. I'm sure at some point in his life he might have been more competitive but it's a struggle for him to get half the targets now. He simply cannot see them (and usually doesn't even shoot). George shoots low gun because he has to. Like me, he has failing vision. I don't see that he moves, mounts, swings, shoots, etc., etc. any better or differently than I do when I shoot low gun.

                Would I ever have changed from high gun at the range if I hadn't had the vision problems handicapping me at the flurry shoot leading me to try something else? Probably not. But just imagine how much better I would be shooting low gun if I was 20/20 in both eyes and no floaters fogging my shooting eye's vision. I probably would never have figured it out. Adversity is the mother of invention ... and also improvement.

                Come hunting with me in Montana this year. Show me what a hot shot you are hitting pheasants in the head every time. After putting in ten miles on the hoof and a bird flushes in a thirty mile/hr wind, we'll see if you can even get the gun to your shoulder in time to get a shot, let alone worry about hitting the bird in the head. Five years ago I killed the first dozen birds before missing a shot. The year before it was first eleven without missing a shot. Those days are gone! I'm actually a better shot now (with much better eyesight) ... if I'm reasonably fresh. But there is no hope of staying "reasonably fresh" if there's no birds. Last year old Opal got me the only daily limit in the last two seasons. That's six weeks or more per year hunting almost daily. The piece of property Opal and I hunted that day is just under four miles in length. I hunted it end to end and then back to the middle, including several side trips up adjacent coulees. That was a relatively easy day!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Ontario Honker Hunter View Post

                  And no dog to greet you when you come home, or try to cheer you when you're feeling bad, or lay with its head on your lap just for the heck of it. Dogs are better humans than people will ever be. They love unconditionally and they are truthful to a fault. Yeah sure, there's dog hair in my house and my car. Never get something for nothing and a little hair is a small price to pay for what my dogs give to me. Very sad that you can't be bothered with being loved. Watching them work is one of the greatest joys in my life. I love seeing them do what they love. All about love. Vehicles don't show any love. They're just stuff ... something to show off. I think I have the right priorities.
                  OHH, that was a stretch. I share love and life events with other humans. Doing that with animals is inadequate in comparison. Just a different perspective and priorities from you.
                  Trump 2020 - Keep America Great!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by PigHunter View Post

                    OHH, that was a stretch. I share love and life events with other humans. Doing that with animals is inadequate in comparison. Just a different perspective and priorities from you.
                    It's not a stretch for me. Dogs will give you far more unquestionable love than any human will, no matter how little you may give in return. There are many good people out there, but enough bad ones that the more time I spend around people the more I want to spend with my dogs. I've always been a Labrador man, having no use for and nothing but disdain for little lap dogs. So naturally the ratty little Dachshund my wife talked me into instantly bonded to me rather than her. She has to put it in another room when I come home because she's afraid it is going to pass out from the scene it makes when I walk through the door. I also wake most mornings with it curled up on my chest. The first time, before fully awake, I thought I was having a heart attack, from the chest pressure. It's been a while since I've had a human on top of me.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by RustyGunz60 View Post

                      It's not a stretch for me. Dogs will give you far more unquestionable love than any human will, no matter how little you may give in return. There are many good people out there, but enough bad ones that the more time I spend around people the more I want to spend with my dogs. I've always been a Labrador man, having no use for and nothing but disdain for little lap dogs. So naturally the ratty little Dachshund my wife talked me into instantly bonded to me rather than her. She has to put it in another room when I come home because she's afraid it is going to pass out from the scene it makes when I walk through the door. I also wake most mornings with it curled up on my chest. The first time, before fully awake, I thought I was having a heart attack, from the chest pressure. It's been a while since I've had a human on top of me.
                      RustyGunz, that's what happened with a terrier my Ex-Wife brought home. That dog bonded with me and wanted to sit in my lap before she would with other people. Part of the connection was when we hunted squirrels. I guess they see the man of the house as the Alpha dog. I was ok with it for a few years because the kids enjoyed having a couple of dogs.

                      But I tried to draw the line about having the dog sleep with us 4 years into ownership. But the Ex wouldn't listen to my complaints. So, I started sleeping in another room and moved out within 4 months, filing for divorce. It's been 15 years and I haven't had a dog since. I sometimes frame that divorce as a battle between us adults for Alpha position.

                      But it all ended up well, because I met PigHuntress and she's a much better wife.
                      Trump 2020 - Keep America Great!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        PIghunter, glad you've explained the source of animosity. I'm sure there were more deep seated reasons for your divorce than the dog taking over the bed. I would hope so anyway. FYI my wife never let the dogs sleep on the bed but they were allowed to get on the couch with me after our son died. I generally do not allow them on the bed but sometimes they sneak up there. In the fall they sleep with me when we're in Montana because there's really not enough room in the trailer for them all to sleep on the floor (though Opal preferred the floor unless it was very cold out). They want to sleep with me in strange places like motel rooms and I usually throw an old sleeping bag on top so they don't get bed coverings hairy or dirty. I suppose I could be stricter about it but I guess I'm spoiling myself as much as them.

                        Back on topic: I shot another perfect round at skeet tonight and also 22/25. Low gun of course. The Citori finally arrived this afternoon and I shot 22 and 24 trap with it. No skeet chokes for it so I shot skeet with the big gun. The Citori seems to fit well (with added slip-on recoil pad) and it has a marvellous trigger. Seemed strange at first shooting a gun that didn't jump around after each shot (A-5 utilizes the long recoil "double shuffle"). A pleasure to shoot in spite of more felt recoil. Be interesting to see how it handles low gun. I'll let you know after clays on Thursday. IC over modified Invector+ chokes came in the gun and that is a good combination for our course. Two skeet chokes and one full choke for trap are on order.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Liberals and dog chit, neither allowed in my yard.

                          My Citori Magnum hit too high for me, nice older fixed choke gun. Bummer.
                          Went back to 1100.

                          Might look for a bbl and run the old man's 1100 Trap if drawn for dove.
                          Steel in a Mod works OK.
                          Like a heavier gun. My standard model w synth stock and 26" Imp Cyl was just a bit too light.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by CD2 View Post
                            Liberals and dog chit, neither allowed in my yard.

                            My Citori Magnum hit too high for me, nice older fixed choke gun. Bummer.
                            Went back to 1100.

                            Might look for a bbl and run the old man's 1100 Trap if drawn for dove.
                            Steel in a Mod works OK.
                            Like a heavier gun. My standard model w synth stock and 26" Imp Cyl was just a bit too light.
                            I also prefer to shoot flat. Both the Magnum A-5 (wearing synthetic) and this Citori shoot higher than I prefer. I take care of that with slip-on recoil pad to lengthen LOP. In winter when I'm layered up I'll shoot without the slip-on. The Browning factory recoil pad on the Citori is dried up, hard, and slippery. Accidentally went to the double trap line without slip-on which was still on the Magnum auto from shooting skeet. If I'd been shooting with friendlier pair, I would have stopped and run back to the table for slip-on, but those two can easily get upset about nothing so I put up with it. Didn't shoot too badly but was pulling the gun out of the pocket for many second targets. Since this Citori is not likely to be used in the field, I'm contemplating an adjustable recoil pad. Graco makes one that is fairly reasonable price and I have the equipment to trim and fit. Thought about one for A-5 but fitting it to a hollow synthetic stock would be tricky. Anyone have experience with these things?
                            Last edited by Ontario Honker Hunter; 07-24-2019, 07:50 AM.

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                            • #29
                              I shot a couple of Superposed that had Morgan? adj pads on em.
                              Think my buds 3200 has some adj pad on it.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Ontario Honker Hunter View Post

                                Obviously practising at a stationary target on the ceiling is not the same as shooting at a pulled target on the range. The target is not moving. The objective of the in home practice is 1) to ensure I naturally close left eye as the gun comes up (my left eye is screwed up - shooting with both eyes open puts the pattern high and to the right) and 2) to practice ensuring the gun is naturally positioned in proper mount.

                                George certainly does not shoot better than me. I'm sure at some point in his life he might have been more competitive but it's a struggle for him to get half the targets now. He simply cannot see them (and usually doesn't even shoot). George shoots low gun because he has to. Like me, he has failing vision. I don't see that he moves, mounts, swings, shoots, etc., etc. any better or differently than I do when I shoot low gun.

                                Would I ever have changed from high gun at the range if I hadn't had the vision problems handicapping me at the flurry shoot leading me to try something else? Probably not. But just imagine how much better I would be shooting low gun if I was 20/20 in both eyes and no floaters fogging my shooting eye's vision. I probably would never have figured it out. Adversity is the mother of invention ... and also improvement.

                                Come hunting with me in Montana this year. Show me what a hot shot you are hitting pheasants in the head every time. After putting in ten miles on the hoof and a bird flushes in a thirty mile/hr wind, we'll see if you can even get the gun to your shoulder in time to get a shot, let alone worry about hitting the bird in the head. Five years ago I killed the first dozen birds before missing a shot. The year before it was first eleven without missing a shot. Those days are gone! I'm actually a better shot now (with much better eyesight) ... if I'm reasonably fresh. But there is no hope of staying "reasonably fresh" if there's no birds. Last year old Opal got me the only daily limit in the last two seasons. That's six weeks or more per year hunting almost daily. The piece of property Opal and I hunted that day is just under four miles in length. I hunted it end to end and then back to the middle, including several side trips up adjacent coulees. That was a relatively easy day!
                                First off old George may not shoot well now but as you say he was probably pretty good back in the day. Based on that experience it may be fruitful for you to speak with him and use any info he may wish to share. You seem to be quite serious about how your experience is so impressive, could it be there might be someone with more......show the guy some respect !
                                There is a procedure that will take care of those floaters, won't your health care allow you to have that operation ?
                                I have been known to spend 4 to 6 hours in the grouse woods ( not trail walking ) where the cover can be much tougher to walk and shoot through. After doing that for several days, pheasants look like big balloons that are hardly moving.
                                For most of the time over Gabe & Clem ( a 25 year period ) I would average 15 to 18 kills in a row to start the season. My best was 22 birds from a box of shells when Clem was 5 or 6 years old.
                                Does this mean I am a "hot shot" ? The thing was I had two very good dogs with excellent noses and they understood hunting in range. When they turned and surged forward to flush, using my many years of experience it was very possible to anticipate which direction the bird would fly.
                                The shots were generally so easy it was difficult to miss 😀
                                As an upland bird hunter is this not what one would "aspire" for ?
                                I have heard you comment before how difficult it is to lift and shoot your long heavy gun on your long and arduous hunts. Wouldn't it be better to get a lighter shotgun ( still with some weight forward ) to solve this issue ? If hunting hard all day ( or trying to ) leads to that much fatigue maybe a new perspective should be considered ?
                                Not being able to complete your part of that task some would say is not showing respect for the dog.
                                Since you have difficulty describing the move mount shoot method and understanding the nuances of it I will "respectfully" doubt this is the system you use.
                                Or at best you are not using it to its full advantage ( which is making sure the muzzle is in front of the bird when the trigger is pulled ) !

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