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Why doesn't everyone own a 6PPC?

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  • #46
    "... I was only disagreeing with crm's statement about the 22-250 being just as accurate as the PPC. ..."

    No offense, but it's a matter of perspective.

    To me, a well done T-bone is perfect.
    To a gourmet, it's a travesty.

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    • #47
      Agreed-definitely a matter of perspective.

      If he meant just as accurate to kill an animal at 200 yards, then I would completely agree with him.

      If he meant just as accurate to shoot groups on paper, then I completely disagree with him.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Ernie View Post
        Agreed-definitely a matter of perspective.

        If he meant just as accurate to kill an animal at 200 yards, then I would completely agree with him.

        If he meant just as accurate to shoot groups on paper, then I completely disagree with him.
        Oh, I agree with you....and him! 😉!

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        • #49
          .222 Rem. Old school cool and still capable.

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          • #50
            From Ernie: "I was only disagreeing with crm's statement about the 22-250 being just as accurate as the PPC."

            I have a group, shot at 200 yds., from my stock Remington 700 .22-250, that barely distinguishes three bullet holes. You actually have to "plug" one hole to see the outline of the other two. The only thing I have ever done to accurize that rifle is work on the stock to free float the barrel.
            Now, you want to say something else about the accuracy of the .22-250?

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            • #51
              Sure…
              One time groups or wallet groups, everyone has them. But if I was a betting man, I could guarantee that your rifle could not shoot five shot groups that small consistently.
              The 6 PPC is capable with the right person running it.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Ernie View Post
                Sure…
                One time groups or wallet groups, everyone has them. But if I was a betting man, I could guarantee that your rifle could not shoot five shot groups that small consistently.
                The 6 PPC is capable with the right person running it.
                ....and '06's pickup can make it all the way around the "Brick Yard" in Indianapolis, but not as quickly and cleanly as Mario Andretti and an Indy car.

                A 6mm PPC came out of a custom gunsmith's shop and has been finely tuned and honed. The scope probably cost as much as the gun itself. The ammo has also been carefully handcrafted by somebody that (figuratively) counts powder granules and scrapes bullets for consistent weights.
                A .22-250 Rem is "mass" (?) produced in a factory and is assembled out of parts that meet an industry "tolerance". Not necessarily "precision hand fitted".
                The ammo either came off a store shelf or is loaded by an "ol' boy" in the corner of his garage/shop, weighs every other powder charge and uses an "off the shelf" box of bullets.

                You guys are comparing watermelons and grapes. Both sweet, both juicy. Two completely different animals.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by FirstBubba View Post
                  You guys are comparing watermelons and grapes. Both sweet, both juicy. Two completely different animals.
                  Agreed Bubba!

                  Even with a custom BR rig chambered in 22-250, it will shoot better than a factory rig with either factory ammo or handloads, but it will not be able to to hold aggs/consistent tiny 5-shot groups at 100/200/300 yards that the 6PPC can do. Even the same quality weapon chambered in 22PPC doesn't stand up to the 6PPC, especially at 200 and 300 yards...It has been tried already and found wanting.
                  For this discipline, the 6PPC is the king of the hill.
                  I don't even own a 6PPC.
                  I do have contact with some of the best BR shooters out there, even Hall of Fame BR shooters, some of who are also some of the top gunsmiths for that discipline, since my side business caters almost exclusively to the precision shooting world.

                  I get it, that people feel the need or desire to defend their rifle or their favorite cartridge.
                  Also, I am not suggesting that 6PPC is the only cartridge used in 100/200/300 BR, because it is not. People always are thinking they can find a better way to skin the cat...That is how the sport evolves, but with that, there is also a lot of failure and frustration.

                  Will the 6 PPC be knocked off the hill??? Maybe...
                  I am not saying it is the best, period, I am saying it is the best from everything we know right now, and the 22-250 doesn't even come close for this discipline.

                  Guess what??? In the 100/200 yard score game, the 6PPC is NOT the King of The Hill.
                  That would be the 30 BR.
                  In the 600 and 1000 yard BR game whether Light Gun or Heavy Gun, the 6 PPC is not the king of the hill there either. It is not the king of the hill in 600 and 1000 yards F-Open either.
                  FWIW the 30 BR or the 6PPC doesn't stand a chance at 1000 yard BR or 1000 yard F-Open.

                  But a fast twist 6 PPC would do better than the 30 BR at 1K day in and day out.

                  I don't have a dog in this fight, I am just giving out information.
                  The Triple Duece has already been mentioned, and at one time, it was the King of The Hill.

                  Tony Boyer
                  Jack Neary (Hall of Fame BR Shooter)
                  http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...rds-in-canada/
                  https://youtu.be/MfS-SahDAyA
                  And Speedy Gonzalez, also a Hall of Fame BR shooter are the Hall of Fame guys I was referencing. I speak with Speedy on a fairly regular basis.



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                  • #54
                    Notice these are aggs.
                    This is the level of repeatable accuracy.
                    I forgot to mention Mike Ratigan as well earlier...
                    From the 09 Nationals:
                    http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-br-nationals/

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...&submit=Search
                      Now you guys know where to do some searches and find out more information about the 6PPC.

                      Mr. DakotaMan,
                      IF, I decided to get into the 100/200/300 yard BR game I would do it with a 6 PPC!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        The whole premise of the original post was: "Why doesn't everyone own a 6PPC?"
                        I think I have conclusively shown, and others have chimed in, that other rifle/cartridge combinations can be just as accurate, without all the custom machining, accurizing, expensive optics, and precision handloading. Consistently? Possibly not. My .22-250 requires two or three fouling shots before it settles down after a through barrel scrubbing. However, it is simply a stock rifle, with very little customization done, and wears a stock Leupold 4.5 X 16 VariX III, with a fine reticle.
                        As to five shot groups, what is your interval? Mine will shoot fine for three, (Which is plenty to determine accuracy), but without a suitable cool down, the fourth or fifth shot will probably be a flyer. Not necessarily a miss, but not conducive to a group such as benchrest shooters desire. Nor will it miss a deer, or even a prairie dog. Just not as tight as the first three, shot at a reasonable interval.
                        So, everybody does not own a 6PPC, because everybody is not obsessed with same-hole groups, everybody does not see the need for a $3500-$5000 rifle/scope combination, and a lot of people have better things to do with a rifle than shoot holes in paper.
                        For example, my little .22-250 has accounted for seven deer, and two hogs already this year. How many 6PPC paper punchers can say the same?

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by crm3006 View Post
                          [COLOR=#27ae60]Simple answer, the .22-250 can be just as accurate...
                          Good to hear from you CRM. I can only say, I personally prize precision in any rifle I shoot. I don't care if I'm plugging a nice deer at 25 yards. I like to know that I can hit exactly where I intend at any distance within the rifle's useful range. I know it is up to me to actually do it but I don't like the rifle being a constraint.

                          I've shot 22-250 quite a bit and must say, I like it and the .220 Swift a lot. I have several rifles that shoot in the .2s and I'm happy that. I have really had fun with the 6PPC though because I've just never shot any other cartridge that consistently shoots such tight groups. The top Benchresters all seem to agree: "In 100 yard Benchrest, you shoot a 6PPC or you get beat by one". There is a reason for that... it really seems to be accurate. The 30BR is favored in 100 yard scoring matches because it shoots the fattest legal bullet. The increased diameter of the hole is just a little more likely to touch the center dot and score higher because of the fatter bullet. If you shoot five, 5-shot groups though, and measure for aggregate groups size, it won't hold a candle to a 6PPC.

                          I know that the cartridge has just been used in competition. However, it seems to be an inherently accurate cartridge. I don't do anything different in case prep, bullet, bedding, etc. than I do for a .22-250 or a 6BR, .243, 25-06, 6 Dasher, etc. It just shoots better. I like the cartridge and suspect that if I hung an 8 twist hunting barrel on it, it would shoot remarkably well at 1000 yards and compete with the .243 on shooting deer with the same bullets.

                          I also realize that many American hunters are only interested in getting meat and a rusted out 12 gauge with a bent barrel will do the job just fine once you figure out where to aim. I know because that is what I started with. However, I wonder how many American hunters would chose the most accurate cartridge in the world for their hunting if it was the same price, on the same store shelf and their dad had a five year supply of ammo for them to start with. From my observation, it is more accurate than the great 22-250 or anything else I've ever seen. So I respectfully disagree with you. That being said, I also love a 22-250 because it is bloody accurate and WAY faster which is a big advantage when shooting running game. I'm now thinking about using it for eradicating those pesky house flies out to 300 yards.

                          Not saying that everything else is bad. I'm just having lots of fun with it and wonder why they had to make a 6mm ARC copy of the cartridge to get it on store shelves.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            I shot a Stolle Panda setup in 6mm PPC.
                            Not mine.
                            Guy at range had one and offered me a go.
                            Put 5 into half an inch at 225 yards.
                            Some wind, watched the flags. Stuck case 1 and 2 so pulled from rest.
                            Honked the guy off, I outshot him w his rifle.
                            Too funny.

                            Neat round.

                            My dad messed w 6mm Norma BR.
                            Had an old 110 lefty rebarreled. Is the older short action w diff action screw spacing, so still sits in Fajen looking orig stock (kinda cool).
                            Estate hasn't sold it yet.
                            Im no lefty and the estate has another Savage of same action that has been rebarreled by Penrod Precision, and it's been unfired since done 40 yrs ago. .243 win.

                            I thought for a bench gun, I could run a lefty. But would like a synth stock and that will take some work to mod. Got a B&C and would need a pillar relocated.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Be a lot easier to just build a righty off new short action in 7mm08 (yote and deer rig).

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by CD2 View Post
                                Neat round.... My dad messed w 6mm Norma BR.
                                Had an old 110 lefty rebarreled.
                                Glad you got to shoot one CD2. They are fun aren't they.

                                You might want to shoot that left handed 110 right handed. It is pretty common for right handed bench rest shooters to put the bolt handle on the left and load on the left. Then they extract the spent case on the right. They remove the ejector from the bolt so that it does not interfere with case concentricity in the chamber. The one I'm shooting now is set up that way. Without the ejector, the spent case just sits on a single feed follower until you pick it out. That way, you don't have to chase ejected brass around during a match where only single feed is allowed.

                                Since you single feed, there is no need for bottom metal other than a trigger guard so it is easy to drill and pillar bed action screw holes in any stock you desire. You could epoxy the magazine well cut out and paint over it just fine. I extend 1/2" diameter front pillars to the bottom of the stock so you don't need the bottom metal. I buy 6" long scews at the hardware store and cut the heads off. I screw them into the action and then use it to mark the pillar locations in the stock. Then after inserting the epoxied pillars, I let them hold the pillars in the right location until the epoxy dries. It's pretty easy.

                                You can get light weight BR stocks pretty reasonably. I like to put all the weight into the barrel rather than the stock to eliminate torque and recoil for precision.

                                Comment

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