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How reliable and durable is a higher end Remington 700 compared to other push-feed rifles like the Weatherby Mark V, Tikka T3, S

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  • How reliable and durable is a higher end Remington 700 compared to other push-feed rifles like the Weatherby Mark V, Tikka T3, S

    How reliable and durable is a higher end Remington 700 compared to other push-feed rifles like the Weatherby Mark V, Tikka T3, Savage 110, Browning X-bolt, Howa 1500 etc.

  • #2
    Any of the mentioned rifles will last a lifetime and still be handed down for Generations.

    Comment


    • #3
      The higher end Rem 700s are the same as the lower end Rem 700s. Same receiver, same reliability and durability. This is a relatively simple receiver with few moving parts that have stood the test of time in terms of durability.

      Regarding reliability, most push feeds are quite similar. Because of their lack of camming bolt lugs like the Mauser style actions, they can not smash a round into the chamber nor can they forcefully rip one out of the chamber by working the bolt if for some reason it has stuck or deformed in the chamber.

      If a case is dented/deformed, has ice on it or is excessively dirty (e.g. hunting in blowing dust/sand), it will stop a push feed bolt from closing and there is not much you can do to make the bolt close. If you try to force the case forward, it may jam in the chamber short of closing and prevent the receiver may not be strong enough to extract it.

      A Mauser style bolt will actually cam forward using the angular lugs as you close the bolt with tremendous pressure, smashing a case into the chamber making it ready to fire in most cases. If it is unable to crush a round home, it will extract the cartridge most of the time to clear the rifle for the next shot.

      If a push feed has a case get stuck in the chamber for some reason, you better have a brass rod with you to pound it out of the chamber because the push feed extractor is not strong enough to pull it out, thereby jamming your rifle until it is fixed. I keep a brass rod in my rifle case and it always goes with me if I am using a push feed. I have used it numerous times throughout my life and I have had to stop hunting numerous times due to jammed chambers.

      If a Mauser style bolt gets stuck on a bad round, its lugs will cam the case out as you lift the bolt with tremendous pressure. It may rip the brass case in half or you may have to hit the bolt with a hammer but it will extract most cases simply by lifting the bolt.

      All of the push feeds you mentioned are similar with a few exceptions. Some are noted to have stronger extractors (e.g. Sako) but they extract pretty much the same.

      The Mark V has a few design features that in rare instances detract from their reliability. They have a firing pin that screws into the bolt shroud and is prevented from rotating by a detent BB. If the firing pin is not screwed into the bolt shroud precisely the correct number of rotations, it may not fire because of a potential short firing pin.

      If the detent BB is lost in field cleaning, firing is up for grabs because the firing pin will change length uncontrollably. There is also a small screw behind the bolt handle that can work loose. If it is loose the rifle won't fire. This is what got my buddy after three days of stalking a Dahl sheep in Alaska a couple of years ago. He had about 15 seconds for the trophy of a lifetime but his rifle wouldn't fire. Fortunately for him, his guide was accustomed to that rifle and had taken a small screw driver with him. He resumed the stalk and a couple days later got that same sheep.

      Finally the push feeds require the rifle to be in an upright posture to load from the magazine. If the rifle is upside down or severely canted, the cartridge may fall away from the rifle before reaching the chamber. This is seldom a problem in hunting anything but dangerous game where you may be mauled as you reload. It was an important requirement for combat rifles however and that is why the term "controlled round feed" exists. Mauser style receivers such as the M98 and O3-A3 are not bothered by position of the rifle during a loading operation.

      There are physical differences in the push feed receivers but they are all more than adequate for typical hunting conditions. Most hunters don't hunt in adverse conditions so they seldom encounter issues with any of these. Additionally, failure rates are so low that most hunters never encounter a failure.

      Comment


      • #4
        DakotaMan,
        Why on God's green Earth would you disassemble any rifle's bolt in the field for cleaning? Perhaps because the operator didn't clean it until failure? Loose screws? Improper maintenance by unskilled hands can wreck any rifle or cause failures. Push feed rifles are just as reliable as any controlled round feed Mauser out there. Test one upside down if you don't believe it. Gun writers have tested this on many occasions.

        Comment


        • #5
          The Bottom line: With Proper Maintenance and Reasonable Care All the above Mentioned Fire Arms will last more then a life time.

          Comment


          • #6
            WAM, I can think of a couple reasons for disassembling a bolt. These are scenarios I've experienced: First is because you are 25 miles from even a ranch house, have been antelope hunting for three days in blowing sand and dirt and your brand new rifle is failing to fire. You take it apart to clean it as best you can at camp so you can continue your hunt in any way possible.

            The second reason is because you've talked to the Weatherby certified gunsmith over the phone and they advised you to take it apart and clean it yourself rather than pack it up and ship it to them, losing it for at least a month during hunting season.

            In my case, the nearest certified Weatherby gunsmith was exactly 400 miles away and I was out of cell range. In my buddy's case, it was a six day hike back to transportation across Alaskan mountains. Not everybody goes to a guide's camp to hunt a couple days a year or shoots their deer out their truck window.

            When you drag your rifle through the worst that nature has to offer day in and day out, it gets dirty. I for one don't think we should be required to bring our rifles to a gunsmith to clean them weekly. I prefer rifles that are easy to clean and re-assemble properly. That's just me.

            I have noticed by the way that most gun writers have nothing but positive things to say about the product they are reviewing. I wonder why that is? I've tried to load push feeds every way possible numerous times. I can't say that they work all the time. They don't.

            Not that this is an issue for me because I am always upright when I load my rifle for hunting or target shooting. The issue with push feeds is that they don't have the camming lugs to force cartridges in or out of the chamber. As a hunter, you WILL have issues with this, especially if you hunt in adverse conditions or reload your own ammo. Is either of these so chronic as to make the product unusable... no... definitely not. If you hunt or shoot a LOT like I do, I suggest getting yourself a brass rod like the gunsmiths use on these.

            Comment


            • #7
              To put it simple, there's a reason the marine snipers have been using the model 700 as a preferred sniper rifle for this long. I have a T3 and 111 but my 700 in 30-06 seems unbeatable.

              Comment


              • #8
                I keep a steel rod in my truck for stuck cases. Only used it once on a Mossberg shotgun....

                Never had a stuck case with any of my handloads. All are cycled through the rifle before I leave home. If my rifle gets incredibly dirty, I use some action cleaner or Coleman fuel on the bolt assembly. Your Mauser bolt has so many places for dirt to intrude into rotating parts, you are wise to be able to disassemble it in the field. Unless you are pouring pea gravel into the action of a Mark V, it will sweep the dust out with every cycle with the grooved fulldiameter bolt.

                Comment


                • #9
                  WAM, I don't want to disparage the Mark V because it is a very nice product. I really like the 60 degree bolt throw and light action in particular. However, I have had mine fail to engage the sear twice, missing two shots at two separate antelope (after hours of stalking) because of it.

                  According to a Weatherby certified gunsmith whose name was provided to me by Weatherby Customer Support, the cause was dust accumulated in the factory lubrication of the trigger assembly (new rifle). Based on their recommendation, I dipped it and cleaned it in alcohol and that fixed it. I believe that this might happen to any of the modern adjustable triggers but haven't tested them all (Timney comment below.

                  I realize that in my lifetime I have hunted in some of the nastiest conditions known to mankind. I use rifles hard. My rifles have been dropped down mountains, out of tree stands, buried in mud, dropped in the river and they have fallen out of trucks while I was still going 30 mph.

                  I've hunted a lot for many days at a time on the dusty prairie and I've drug my rifles through so much snow and ice, I've had to smack them against a tree to knock enough ice off to work the bolt.

                  In that antelope hunt, I had endured three days of blowing prairie dust, mixed with snow, freezing rain, heavy plain rain and 80 degree dryness mixed with 40-50 mph winds. I had dirt in my teeth and had to blow my nose several times daily to breath.

                  As I understand it, one reason that Mauser bolt specifications are so loose is so that they operate with mud and ice in the action. Mine sure does and I have never had my Timney trigger fail, even when used in worse antelope hunting conditions than the hunt above.

                  I can't say I have torture tested these rifles in a side-by-side comparison though. I would like to see the results of an objective test out of curiosity. I know that the military has done such tests but their priorities are probably much different than mine with unit cost and manufacturing ability being tops.

                  By the way, I certainly test all my hunting reloads in the chamber too and have actually stuck many a case in push feeds doing that because of a reloading defect that I caught in the process. I generally catch such defects at the range or p-dog town though since I can unjam the occasional case if necessary right there. I reload a lot though and I shoot a lot more than most shooters ever thought of doing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by DakotaMan View Post
                    WAM, I can think of a couple reasons for disassembling a bolt. These are scenarios I've experienced: First is because you are 25 miles from even a ranch house, have been antelope hunting for three days in blowing sand and dirt and your brand new rifle is failing to fire. You take it apart to clean it as best you can at camp so you can continue your hunt in any way possible.

                    The second reason is because you've talked to the Weatherby certified gunsmith over the phone and they advised you to take it apart and clean it yourself rather than pack it up and ship it to them, losing it for at least a month during hunting season.

                    In my case, the nearest certified Weatherby gunsmith was exactly 400 miles away and I was out of cell range. In my buddy's case, it was a six day hike back to transportation across Alaskan mountains. Not everybody goes to a guide's camp to hunt a couple days a year or shoots their deer out their truck window.

                    When you drag your rifle through the worst that nature has to offer day in and day out, it gets dirty. I for one don't think we should be required to bring our rifles to a gunsmith to clean them weekly. I prefer rifles that are easy to clean and re-assemble properly. That's just me.

                    I have noticed by the way that most gun writers have nothing but positive things to say about the product they are reviewing. I wonder why that is? I've tried to load push feeds every way possible numerous times. I can't say that they work all the time. They don't.

                    Not that this is an issue for me because I am always upright when I load my rifle for hunting or target shooting. The issue with push feeds is that they don't have the camming lugs to force cartridges in or out of the chamber. As a hunter, you WILL have issues with this, especially if you hunt in adverse conditions or reload your own ammo. Is either of these so chronic as to make the product unusable... no... definitely not. If you hunt or shoot a LOT like I do, I suggest getting yourself a brass rod like the gunsmiths use on these.
                    If I understand you, you are in favor of push feed bolts--because they can be field striped and cleaned?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DakotaMan View Post
                      The higher end Rem 700s are the same as the lower end Rem 700s. Same receiver, same reliability and durability. This is a relatively simple receiver with few moving parts that have stood the test of time in terms of durability.

                      Regarding reliability, most push feeds are quite similar. Because of their lack of camming bolt lugs like the Mauser style actions, they can not smash a round into the chamber nor can they forcefully rip one out of the chamber by working the bolt if for some reason it has stuck or deformed in the chamber.

                      If a case is dented/deformed, has ice on it or is excessively dirty (e.g. hunting in blowing dust/sand), it will stop a push feed bolt from closing and there is not much you can do to make the bolt close. If you try to force the case forward, it may jam in the chamber short of closing and prevent the receiver may not be strong enough to extract it.

                      A Mauser style bolt will actually cam forward using the angular lugs as you close the bolt with tremendous pressure, smashing a case into the chamber making it ready to fire in most cases. If it is unable to crush a round home, it will extract the cartridge most of the time to clear the rifle for the next shot.

                      If a push feed has a case get stuck in the chamber for some reason, you better have a brass rod with you to pound it out of the chamber because the push feed extractor is not strong enough to pull it out, thereby jamming your rifle until it is fixed. I keep a brass rod in my rifle case and it always goes with me if I am using a push feed. I have used it numerous times throughout my life and I have had to stop hunting numerous times due to jammed chambers.

                      If a Mauser style bolt gets stuck on a bad round, its lugs will cam the case out as you lift the bolt with tremendous pressure. It may rip the brass case in half or you may have to hit the bolt with a hammer but it will extract most cases simply by lifting the bolt.

                      All of the push feeds you mentioned are similar with a few exceptions. Some are noted to have stronger extractors (e.g. Sako) but they extract pretty much the same.

                      The Mark V has a few design features that in rare instances detract from their reliability. They have a firing pin that screws into the bolt shroud and is prevented from rotating by a detent BB. If the firing pin is not screwed into the bolt shroud precisely the correct number of rotations, it may not fire because of a potential short firing pin.

                      If the detent BB is lost in field cleaning, firing is up for grabs because the firing pin will change length uncontrollably. There is also a small screw behind the bolt handle that can work loose. If it is loose the rifle won't fire. This is what got my buddy after three days of stalking a Dahl sheep in Alaska a couple of years ago. He had about 15 seconds for the trophy of a lifetime but his rifle wouldn't fire. Fortunately for him, his guide was accustomed to that rifle and had taken a small screw driver with him. He resumed the stalk and a couple days later got that same sheep.

                      Finally the push feeds require the rifle to be in an upright posture to load from the magazine. If the rifle is upside down or severely canted, the cartridge may fall away from the rifle before reaching the chamber. This is seldom a problem in hunting anything but dangerous game where you may be mauled as you reload. It was an important requirement for combat rifles however and that is why the term "controlled round feed" exists. Mauser style receivers such as the M98 and O3-A3 are not bothered by position of the rifle during a loading operation.

                      There are physical differences in the push feed receivers but they are all more than adequate for typical hunting conditions. Most hunters don't hunt in adverse conditions so they seldom encounter issues with any of these. Additionally, failure rates are so low that most hunters never encounter a failure.
                      I'm a little puzzled by some of this:
                      1) Don't all bolt actions use a camming effect to load a cartridge? Bolts are pretty simple mechanical devices, and it seems impossible to close a bolt without the lugs engaging the receiver slots, which causes the camming effect.
                      2) Several noted gun authorities have noted that push feed actions will load cartridges in any position, even upside down. (e.g., Craig Boddington,American Hunting Rifles pg. 238 fifth paragraph; and the May 16 F&S post, 2011 Bolt Actions Broken Down: The Difference Between Controlled-Feed and Push-Feed by David E. Petzal)

                      I'm not making a claim that push-feeds are better, just that that they will function if properly used.

                      Comment

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