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  • #16
    Originally posted by DakotaMan View Post
    Interesting article. Seems that these guys are dying breed. The love of tinkering with firearms and the desire to learn just one more thing about firearms has kept them going for decades. I've always had a lot if respect for them. Since retiring in 2009, I've played almost daily at a hobby of making precision long range rifles. I have even more respect for them after doing that.

    Even with mostly new parts and specialization in rifles, it seems that there is always something unpredicted that costs time. Whether it is finding and buying parts, getting your paint sprayer to work right, sharpening your lathe bits, making tools and fixtures to speed up processes and just testing finished products to be sure they work as intended. Nowadays, we also have so many varied firearms with different designs, assembly techniques and nuances that general gunsmithing often takes more time than it is worth.

    I'm not quite his age but I can appreciate his lack of interest in ARs. I was that way myself until I discovered that you can make them shoot as accurately as a bolt rifle. Now they are among my favorite rifles, however they truly are overkill for target shooting and hunting. The are sure fun to shoot though once they get to the point where you can shoot house flies at 100 yards or prairie dogs at 850 yards all day.
    What caliber bullet do you use for 800yds in the AR ?

    Comment


    • #17
      Watched a old TV show last night. The gunsmiths name was Dan 'something', I don't remember. He is working on bullets for a .338 Lapua.
      As a bullet passes from supersonic to subsonic, shockwaves cause the bullet to vibrate. They are hand turning bullets in an attemp to stop the vibrations.

      They are shooting at 5400 YARDS!
      Yeppers!
      I had to replay it to make sure I was hearing it correctly!
      Five thousand, four hundred yards!

      Comment


      • #18
        What caliber bullet do you use for 800yds in the AR ? [/QUOTE]

        Jimbo, although everyone says it can't be done, I had an excellent full afternoon shooting pdogs at 850 yards with both 40g and 50g VMAX bullets (with 25-35 mph cross winds to boot). Most who read this will say it is pure BS but it actually works and I can tell you because I did it and the results are repeatable. These bullets go subsonic at about 300 yards as I recall (you need to run a ballistic calculation for actuals). Those bullets made the transition smoothly though and were surprisingly accurate and true to the ballistic simulation at 850. You will need a scope with at least 65 MOA of elevation and windage.

        I found about 10 pdog mounds that ranged exactly 850 yards and shot pdogs on them all afternoon. I know this is cheating but I verified my elevation at that range and set my windage for 30 mph cross winds and shot when I could measure wind at exactly that speed. It took me about 10 rounds for each bullet to hone in on the right scope settings for 850. Changing ranges with each shot would have made it next to impossible.

        I would shoot when the wind was right at 30 mph. The techniques is to shoot, keeping your cross hair on the pdog so you can watch the impact and adjust to shoot again before the wind changes direction or speed. It took around 2.5 seconds for the bullets to arrive so I could normally get up to three good shots off before the wind changed and that was usually plenty. It rarely took me more than 3 shots to walk the shots in for a hit. Most first shots were within a foot or less of the target pdog. Every bullet was coming in from the left and would knock the pdog sideways to the right just as though it were shot with a .22 short.

        The muzzle brake on my .223 AR allows me to continue watching the pdog in the cross hair even after I shoot. Without the muzzle brake, I would require a spotter with a spotting scope to tell me where bullets were hitting.

        The pdogs rarely moved because the bullets were going subsonic and they were dropping at such an extreme downward angle that they never ricocheted or kicked up dirt.

        I am now testing a 6mm AR cartridge that I extended in length .020" more than the 6.5 Grendel for longer range shooting and that easily stays supersonic to 1100 yards. So far it seems to have the accuracy to do just fine even selecting different ranges with each shot. So far my best bullet for 6mm AR precision has been the Hornady 108g ELD. I've tested the Berger 105g and 109g Hybrids a bit too and they are similar. Wish I had some primers and some powder to do more testing.

        Please note that these ARs are heavy varmint barrels, customized for exceptional precision, with a Vortex Viper 6-24x50 and Leupold LR 6.5-20x50 optics and a Giessele trigger set at 1 lb. The 6mm with high BC bullets is highly predictable out to 850 yards but the little .223 bullets can hit too as long as you know how to do it.
        Last edited by DakotaMan; 01-14-2021, 03:22 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by DakotaMan View Post
          What caliber bullet do you use for 800yds in the AR ?
          Jimbo, although everyone says it can't be done, I had an excellent full afternoon shooting pdogs at 850 yards with both 40g and 50g VMAX bullets (with 25-35 mph cross winds to boot). Most who read this will say it is pure BS but it actually works and I can tell you because I did it and the results are repeatable. These bullets go subsonic at about 300 yards as I recall (you need to run a ballistic calculation for actuals). Those bullets made the transition smoothly though and were surprisingly accurate and true to the ballistic simulation at 850. You will need a scope with at least 65 MOA of elevation and windage.

          I found about 10 pdog mounds that ranged exactly 850 yards and shot pdogs on them all afternoon. I know this is cheating but I verified my elevation at that range and set my windage for 30 mph cross winds and shot when I could measure wind at exactly that speed. It took me about 10 rounds for each bullet to hone in on the right scope settings for 850. Changing ranges with each shot would have made it next to impossible.

          I would shoot when the wind was right at 30 mph. The techniques is to shoot, keeping your cross hair on the pdog so you can watch the impact and adjust to shoot again before the wind changes direction or speed. It took around 2.5 seconds for the bullets to arrive so I could normally get up to three good shots off before the wind changed and that was usually plenty. It rarely took me more than 3 shots to walk the shots in for a hit. Most first shots were within a foot or less of the target pdog. Every bullet was coming in from the left and would knock the pdog sideways to the right just as though it were shot with a .22 short.

          The muzzle brake on my .223 AR allows me to continue watching the pdog in the cross hair even after I shoot. Without the muzzle brake, I would require a spotter with a spotting scope to tell me where bullets were hitting.

          The pdogs rarely moved because the bullets were going subsonic and they were dropping at such an extreme downward angle that they never ricocheted or kicked up dirt.

          I am now testing a 6mm AR cartridge that I extended in length .020" more than the 6.5 Grendel for longer range shooting and that easily stays supersonic to 1100 yards. So far it seems to have the accuracy to do just fine even selecting different ranges with each shot. So far my best bullet for 6mm AR precision has been the Hornady 108g ELD. I've tested the Berger 105g and 109g Hybrids a bit too and they are similar. Wish I had some primers and some powder to do more testing.

          Please note that these ARs are heavy varmint barrels, customized for exceptional precision, with a Vortex Viper 6-24x50 and Leupold LR 6.5-20x50 optics and a Giessele trigger set at 1 lb. The 6mm with high BC bullets is highly predictable out to 850 yards but the little .223 bullets can hit too as long as you know how to do it.[/QUOTE]

          Have you ever tried the 6mm Creedmoor ?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by jhjimbo View Post
            Have you ever tried the 6mm Creedmoor ?
            Yes indeed, jimbo... I have built several and it is one of the best for long range, variable distance, small target shooting. The 6CM is so accurate with a good Bartlein barrel and quality optics that it is almost not sporting to shoot p-dogs at 1000 yards. With good handloads and good optics, a good shooter can expect to hit a very high percentage of their 1000 yard shots with that cartridge.

            I have learned over time that you can expect around 1500 precision rounds before the barrel is shot out; however, I had one that went almost 3000 rounds before needing barrel replacement. This cartridge heats up the barrel pretty fast so you have to be able to give it a rest every dozen shots or so on a p-dog colony. Since it is overbore like many fast cartridges, you also have to clean the carbon ring build up in front of the chamber every 500 rounds or so. I use Semichrome to do this and it does a great job.

            I've shown this picture before but this was with my 6CM as I was zeroing a new Nightforce 8-32x50 scope at 1100 yards. These were my first shots with the scope so they are off center but they did shoot an acceptable 3.25" 5-shot group at 1100 yards in variable winds up to 10 mph. As you can see, its really not too hard to hit a p-dog at that range with such a rifle.

            I'm now in the final stages of building a 6mm Dasher to see if I can get similar performancewith less heat build up and a longe Click image for larger version

Name:	First group 1100 yards.JPG
Views:	92
Size:	88.6 KB
ID:	765936 r barrel life. It looks like I might achieve 2500 shots or so on a barrel but I will need a 30" barrel vs 26" to achieve velocity near that of a 6mm Creedmoor. I'm hoping for around 3000 to 3050 fps from that Dasher.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by DakotaMan View Post
              Yes indeed, jimbo... I have built several and it is one of the best for long range, variable distance, small target shooting. The 6CM is so accurate with a good Bartlein barrel and quality optics that it is almost not sporting to shoot p-dogs at 1000 yards. With good handloads and good optics, a good shooter can expect to hit a very high percentage of their 1000 yard shots with that cartridge.

              I have learned over time that you can expect around 1500 precision rounds before the barrel is shot out; however, I had one that went almost 3000 rounds before needing barrel replacement. This cartridge heats up the barrel pretty fast so you have to be able to give it a rest every dozen shots or so on a p-dog colony. Since it is overbore like many fast cartridges, you also have to clean the carbon ring build up in front of the chamber every 500 rounds or so. I use Semichrome to do this and it does a great job.

              I've shown this picture before but this was with my 6CM as I was zeroing a new Nightforce 8-32x50 scope at 1100 yards. These were my first shots with the scope so they are off center but they did shoot an acceptable 3.25" 5-shot group at 1100 yards in variable winds up to 10 mph. As you can see, its really not too hard to hit a p-dog at that range with such a rifle.

              I'm now in the final stages of building a 6mm Dasher to see if I can get similar performancewith less heat build up and a longe Click image for larger version  Name:	First group 1100 yards.JPG Views:	17 Size:	88.6 KB ID:	765936 r barrel life. It looks like I might achieve 2500 shots or so on a barrel but I will need a 30" barrel vs 26" to achieve velocity near that of a 6mm Creedmoor. I'm hoping for around 3000 to 3050 fps from that Dasher.
              I watched a video of Black Hills loading .308Match and they said they found a powder that is absolutely unaffected by temp from -20 to 120deg. Any idea what one they are referring to ?
              I posted the link to Shooting Tomes here on 'top handguns' article. Black Hills video is on that link.
              I found the link - bottom right is the video. Best .22 Rimfire Rifles Under $300 (shootingtimes.com)
              Last edited by jhjimbo; 01-15-2021, 01:35 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                jimbo, we have a few powders that used to be available to us that are relatively temperature insensitive. For the .308, powders capable of this that have enough velocity to be useful are (in velocity order(highest to lowest): Aliant ARComp, Varget, RL-17, Enduron 4166 and 4451 as well as RL-16. I prefer temperature insensitivity for competition and hunting so first shots hit where i want but for target shooting and p-dog shooting I don't worry about it with varmints and typical target shooting. In those applications, I can always test a few shots to verify the velocity and ballistics.

                I had a 6mm Creedmoor load of IMR 4350 (temp sensitive) that I tested at an 1100 foot altitude in 80 degree, 90% humidity. I shot that load on a prairie dog shoot in 110 degree temp with 17% humidity at 3400 feet. The load hit about 6" high at 600 yards and my 500 yard holdover was perfect for 750 yards. However, all I had to do was adjust the bullet's BC value in my ballistics calculator and I was instantly ready to shoot for the rest of the day.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by DakotaMan View Post
                  jimbo, we have a few powders that used to be available to us that are relatively temperature insensitive. For the .308, powders capable of this that have enough velocity to be useful are (in velocity order(highest to lowest): Aliant ARComp, Varget, RL-17, Enduron 4166 and 4451 as well as RL-16. I prefer temperature insensitivity for competition and hunting so first shots hit where i want but for target shooting and p-dog shooting I don't worry about it with varmints and typical target shooting. In those applications, I can always test a few shots to verify the velocity and ballistics.

                  I had a 6mm Creedmoor load of IMR 4350 (temp sensitive) that I tested at an 1100 foot altitude in 80 degree, 90% humidity. I shot that load on a prairie dog shoot in 110 degree temp with 17% humidity at 3400 feet. The load hit about 6" high at 600 yards and my 500 yard holdover was perfect for 750 yards. However, all I had to do was adjust the bullet's BC value in my ballistics calculator and I was instantly ready to shoot for the rest of the day.
                  I was working up a 7mmMag one summer and could not get where I wanted to be. Carried my test rounds to range in a cooler and bingo, I was there. Can't remember which powder it was. I wanted close to 3,000 with 175gr.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DakotaMan View Post
                    What caliber bullet do you use for 800yds in the AR ?
                    Jimbo, although everyone says it can't be done, I had an excellent full afternoon shooting pdogs at 850 yards with both 40g and 50g VMAX bullets (with 25-35 mph cross winds to boot). Most who read this will say it is pure BS but it actually works and I can tell you because I did it and the results are repeatable. These bullets go subsonic at about 300 yards as I recall (you need to run a ballistic calculation for actuals). Those bullets made the transition smoothly though and were surprisingly accurate and true to the ballistic simulation at 850. You will need a scope with at least 65 MOA of elevation and windage.

                    I found about 10 pdog mounds that ranged exactly 850 yards and shot pdogs on them all afternoon. I know this is cheating but I verified my elevation at that range and set my windage for 30 mph cross winds and shot when I could measure wind at exactly that speed. It took me about 10 rounds for each bullet to hone in on the right scope settings for 850. Changing ranges with each shot would have made it next to impossible.

                    I would shoot when the wind was right at 30 mph. The techniques is to shoot, keeping your cross hair on the pdog so you can watch the impact and adjust to shoot again before the wind changes direction or speed. It took around 2.5 seconds for the bullets to arrive so I could normally get up to three good shots off before the wind changed and that was usually plenty. It rarely took me more than 3 shots to walk the shots in for a hit. Most first shots were within a foot or less of the target pdog. Every bullet was coming in from the left and would knock the pdog sideways to the right just as though it were shot with a .22 short.

                    The muzzle brake on my .223 AR allows me to continue watching the pdog in the cross hair even after I shoot. Without the muzzle brake, I would require a spotter with a spotting scope to tell me where bullets were hitting.

                    The pdogs rarely moved because the bullets were going subsonic and they were dropping at such an extreme downward angle that they never ricocheted or kicked up dirt.

                    I am now testing a 6mm AR cartridge that I extended in length .020" more than the 6.5 Grendel for longer range shooting and that easily stays supersonic to 1100 yards. So far it seems to have the accuracy to do just fine even selecting different ranges with each shot. So far my best bullet for 6mm AR precision has been the Hornady 108g ELD. I've tested the Berger 105g and 109g Hybrids a bit too and they are similar. Wish I had some primers and some powder to do more testing.

                    Please note that these ARs are heavy varmint barrels, customized for exceptional precision, with a Vortex Viper 6-24x50 and Leupold LR 6.5-20x50 optics and a Giessele trigger set at 1 lb. The 6mm with high BC bullets is highly predictable out to 850 yards but the little .223 bullets can hit too as long as you know how to do it.[/QUOTE]
                    DM I quoted you so you can see this , I have some questions. Why are you shooting 40 and 50 grain Vmax bullets at such long ranges. The trend is using longer heavier bullets with a better coefficient and less wind drift. According to one chart I’m looking at your bullet drop with the 50 grain Vmax is 284 inches at 850 yards with a 100 yard zero. The real concern is with a 30 mph at 850 yards you have 408 inches of drift! That is 34 feet of drift. If at that range and wind you miss by one mph say 20 mph your drift changes 15 inches! My question is , how are you zeroing your rifle , do you shim your scope or use a picatinny rail because the scope your using don’t have that adjustment in them from my experience. I’m going to be shooting groundhogs at some good ranges ! Just interested in the setup .

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      pmac... you are dead right. Using small varmint bullets for long range shooting is not the normal way to go. I normally shoot heavy for caliber bullets and of course they work very well. I tried this as a research experiment just to see what the effect of sonic transition had on these smaller bullets. That scope has 65 MOA of reticle adjustment, I have a 20 MOA scope base and the Vortex EBR1 reticle has 30 MOA of adjustment. I used all of it in this case.

                      You are also dead right that the wind was a BIG factor. If it changed just 1 mph or 5 degrees in direction, it became difficult to predict hits. That is why I used an AR15 with a good muzzle brake. I would aim, shoot and watch 2.5 seconds for the bullet impact. Within about 1 more second, I could get the next round on its way with the correction. I was able to get three shots off in around 10 seconds and the impact was remarkably predictable. I shot all afternoon and in almost every case, the wind held well enough for 10 seconds that this technique worked very well. Most p-dogs were hit on the second or third shot and I rarely needed a fourth shot.

                      I had a few observations that were a surprise to me:
                      1. Impact predictability was much better than I ever expected. Once I had the 850 yard range and 30 mph wind dialed in, hold overs were very consistent.
                      2. There were no ricochets. Low shots simply embedded in the dirt because of their steep angle of drop. I was accustomed to ricochets killing the p-dog on low shots or scaring them at least. They didn't seem to notice low shots in this case.
                      3. The low sub-sonic velocity of the bullets (<800 fps) were rarely noticed by the p-dogs. They obviously made no supersonic crack to scare the varmints. They did seem to hear near-misses but they rarely went down their hole.
                      4. P-dogs weren't blown up but flew sideways when they were hit. The bullet was obviously coming in at a big angle from up-wind.

                      A heavy for caliber VLD bullet will give you the ability to shoot best at long range. Be careful of ricochets though as they may bounce a mile or more after they hit. I do shoot them but I carefully choose my set up so I can see for at least a few miles behind the target or that there is a hill that will stop the bullet when it ricochets. Do not shoot if there are livestock, herds of buffalo, ranchers, deer, antelope or houses behind your point of aim.

                      My most deadly cartridge is the 6mm Creedmoor out to 1400 yards.
                      Last edited by DakotaMan; 01-18-2021, 11:46 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DakotaMan View Post
                        pmac... you are dead right. Using small varmint bullets for long range shooting is not the normal way to go. I normally shoot heavy for caliber bullets and of course they work very well. I tried this as a research experiment just to see what the effect of sonic transition had on these smaller bullets. That scope has 65 MOA of reticle adjustment, I have a 20 MOA scope base and the Vortex EBR1 reticle has 30 MOA of adjustment. I used all of it in this case.

                        You are also dead right that the wind was a BIG factor. If it changed just 1 mph or 5 degrees in direction, it became difficult to predict hits. That is why I used an AR15 with a good muzzle brake. I would aim, shoot and watch 2.5 seconds for the bullet impact. Within about 1 more second, I could get the next round on its way with the correction. I was able to get three shots off in around 10 seconds and the impact was remarkably predictable. I shot all afternoon and in almost every case, the wind held well enough for 10 seconds that this technique worked very well. Most p-dogs were hit on the second or third shot and I rarely needed a fourth shot.

                        I had a few observations that were a surprise to me:
                        1. Impact predictability was much better than I ever expected. Once I had the 850 yard range and 30 mph wind dialed in, hold overs were very consistent.
                        2. There were no ricochets. Low shots simply embedded in the dirt because of their steep angle of drop. I was accustomed to ricochets killing the p-dog on low shots or scaring them at least. They didn't seem to notice low shots in this case.
                        3. The low sub-sonic velocity of the bullets (<800 fps) were rarely noticed by the p-dogs. They obviously made no supersonic crack to scare the varmints. They did seem to hear near-misses but they rarely went down their hole.
                        3. P-dogs weren't blown up but flew sideways when they were hit. The bullet was obviously coming in at a big angle from up-wind.

                        A heavy for caliber VLD bullet will give you the ability to shoot best at long range. Be careful of ricochets though as they may bounce a mile or more after they hit. I do shoot them but I carefully choose my set up so I can see for at least a few miles behind the target or that there is a hill that will stop the bullet when it ricochets. Do not shoot if there are livestock, herds of buffalo, ranchers, deer, antelope or houses behind your point of aim.

                        My most deadly cartridge is the 6mm Creedmoor out to 1400 yards.
                        Have you thought of trying the .240Wby case for long range performance. 55gr + or more of 4831 and you might get close to 4,000 fps with a light pill.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DakotaMan View Post
                          pmac... you are dead right. Using small varmint bullets for long range shooting is not the normal way to go. I normally shoot heavy for caliber bullets and of course they work very well. I tried this as a research experiment just to see what the effect of sonic transition had on these smaller bullets. That scope has 65 MOA of reticle adjustment, I have a 20 MOA scope base and the Vortex EBR1 reticle has 30 MOA of adjustment. I used all of it in this case.

                          You are also dead right that the wind was a BIG factor. If it changed just 1 mph or 5 degrees in direction, it became difficult to predict hits. That is why I used an AR15 with a good muzzle brake. I would aim, shoot and watch 2.5 seconds for the bullet impact. Within about 1 more second, I could get the next round on its way with the correction. I was able to get three shots off in around 10 seconds and the impact was remarkably predictable. I shot all afternoon and in almost every case, the wind held well enough for 10 seconds that this technique worked very well. Most p-dogs were hit on the second or third shot and I rarely needed a fourth shot.

                          I had a few observations that were a surprise to me:
                          1. Impact predictability was much better than I ever expected. Once I had the 850 yard range and 30 mph wind dialed in, hold overs were very consistent.
                          2. There were no ricochets. Low shots simply embedded in the dirt because of their steep angle of drop. I was accustomed to ricochets killing the p-dog on low shots or scaring them at least. They didn't seem to notice low shots in this case.
                          3. The low sub-sonic velocity of the bullets (<800 fps) were rarely noticed by the p-dogs. They obviously made no supersonic crack to scare the varmints. They did seem to hear near-misses but they rarely went down their hole.
                          3. P-dogs weren't blown up but flew sideways when they were hit. The bullet was obviously coming in at a big angle from up-wind.

                          A heavy for caliber VLD bullet will give you the ability to shoot best at long range. Be careful of ricochets though as they may bounce a mile or more after they hit. I do shoot them but I carefully choose my set up so I can see for at least a few miles behind the target or that there is a hill that will stop the bullet when it ricochets. Do not shoot if there are livestock, herds of buffalo, ranchers, deer, antelope or houses behind your point of aim.

                          My most deadly cartridge is the 6mm Creedmoor out to 1400 yards.
                          Thank you for your detailed response

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            jimbo: Have you thought of trying the .240Wby case for long range performance. 55gr + or more of 4831 and you might get close to 4,000 fps with a light pill?

                            According to Quick Load simulation, we could get a 58g Vmax with RL26 going 4250 fps with the 240Wby. I have not tried it though jimbo. The issue with the little bullets is barrel burn out. That is a lot of power and very high temperature forced down a tiny bore. The little bullets require more powder than the heavy bullets so they make more fire. The light bullets really don't work well for long range shooting either because they slow down so fast. They are a lot like throwing pepper into the wind. They start fast, but their poor aerodynamic shape makes them slow down terribly and drop like a brick.

                            I have tested the 58g Vmax in 6mm Creedmoor at 3900 fps (similar to a .243) and it shoots with precision, even in an 8 twist barrel. I don't shoot them though because of barrel burning and worse long range precision than the 105g-109g bullets. These fast bullets would be great for running coyotes out to 350 yards or so but not so great for long range precision, especially on variable distance targets. They would be similar to what I did trying the 40g and 50g .223 bullets. They would be OK once you tuned in your holdovers, wind and range to the target but you would miss if the distance changed by 2 yards.

                            The long Weatherby case and long freebore would provide extra velocity. However, the very long powder column of the .240 Weatherby and the long freebore are not as conducive to precision as the short/fat case design with optimum freebore for these light bullets. T

                            It would be a fun experiment though wouldn't it? The only cartridge I've done this type of velocity experimentation with is my .300 Dakota with 110g target bullets. My tests maxed out at 4200 fps. They had terrible precision at that velocity (1" groups) but were exceptionally accurate (less than 0.1" groups) at about 3650 fps. I've also used the 25-06 AI for 20 years or so with 75g bullets at 3950 fps. It is extremely accurate and deadly on p-dogs out to about 700 yards and death on running coyotes within 400 yards. The 257Wby produces about the same results although I haven't used it extensively with these bullets.

                            Comment

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